On this date in 1945... and on this date in 1945...
Anybody who truly believes that the US 'forced' Japan to attack us is a deluded fool.
I suppose we are also to blame for 9/11, too. You know, the whole "we need to understand why the world hates us" bit the libs keep dragging out. . .
We embargoed Japan because of their aggression; our embargo did not CAUSE their aggression.
Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher
August 07, 2018, 11:14 AM
P220 Smudge
quote:
Originally posted by Hound Dog: I suppose we are also to blame for 9/11, too.
Not only just to blame, bbbbut we forced them to!
I'll say it again: un-fucking-believable.
______________________________________________ Carthago delenda est
August 07, 2018, 07:55 PM
parabellum
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge: The Japanese committed atrocities, no doubt. But it was FDR that put Japan’s back against the wall in July 1941 with an oil embargo and forced them to later attack us.
Oh, I see the problem. You're in the wrong forum. Guaranteed. Wrong forum.
If you're lost, call 911. Maybe flag down a policeman.
August 07, 2018, 08:19 PM
RAMIUS
quote:
Originally posted by jerkyjer: Jockos podcast on 731 was intense. I had no idea of the level of savagery that was happening. If you know of that and what happened in the pacific and still want to second guess the decision of 6&9aug, you are not worth anyone's time.
I was actually going to mention that. Here it is for those interested:
Very disturbing stuff. The descriptions of vivisection, baby murders in front of mothers, torture in the name of “science”...it goes on and on. The Japs got off easy in my eyes.
August 07, 2018, 08:34 PM
Sig2340
This is an excellent documentary of the path the Japanese took that ended with the devastation of their country.
"It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018
August 08, 2018, 11:22 AM
parabellum
PowerSurge, are you all through with posting your stupid fucking confused, ignorant, twisted view of history?
August 09, 2018, 10:50 AM
Sig2340
And on this date, Major Charles Sweeny, A/C Commander of Bockscar and Captain Kermit K. Beaha, bombardier dropped a plutonium-based implosion fired atomic bomb on Nagasaki, Japan.
It was the second plutonium implosion bomb detonated; the first was at the Trinity site outside Alamogordo, NM on July 16, 1945. There was concern that the complexity of the implosion system had many concerned that this type of atomic bomb might not work.
Bockscar
Fat Man
Boom!
Bockscar dropped the "Fat Man" bomb at 10:58 local time; it exploded 43 seconds later with a blast yield equivalent to 21 kilotons of TNT at an altitude of 1,650 feet (500 m), approximately 1.5 miles (2.4 km) northwest of the planned aiming point, resulting in the destruction of 44% of the city. An estimated 35,000 people were killed and 60,000 injured.
Following atomic bombings, Emperor Hirohito ordered the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War to accept the Potsdam Declaration terms for ending the war. After several more days of behind-the-scenes negotiations and a failed coup d'état, Emperor Hirohito gave a recorded radio address announcing the surrender of Japan. Given that the Japanese refused to surrender following to Tokyo fire bombing in March, I wonder if the Emporer's fear was the potential for a 400 plane raid where each plane carried atomic weapons.
Japan surrendered before it was utterly destroyed, and in the end, that's all that mattered. A million American's were spared invading the home islands, and six to eight million Japanese were spared dying at their hands.
Crew of Bockscar Major Charles W. Sweeney, aircraft commander 1st Lieutenant Charles D. (Don) Albury, pilot 2nd Lieutenant Fred Olivi, co-pilot Captain James Van Pelt, navigator Captain Kermit K. Beahan, bombardier Corporal Abe Spitzer, radio operator Master Sergeant John D. Kuharek, flight engineer Staff Sergeant Ray Gallagher, gunner, assistant flight engineer Staff Sergeant Edward Buckley, radar operator Sergeant Albert Dehart, tail gunner
Nice is overrated
"It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018
August 09, 2018, 11:10 AM
220-9er
Yes, the nukes saved the Japanese people from themselves. The Japanese would have ultimately suffered the most casualties. They also saved a lot of American and Allied lives. I truly believe I wouldn't have been born if not for the Nuking and subsequent surrender of Japan.
This current spate of (a)mericans apologizing for America nuking Japan is not a new thing. I was subjected to an anti-nuke film at a youth church camp in the '60's. I remember the end: "He slept like a baby!!"
"Paul Warfield Tibbets Jr. never apologized for dropping the atomic bomb that leveled more than two-thirds of the buildings in Hiroshima, Japan, and immediately killed at least 80,000 people. Millions of detractors considered the nuclear attack an example of man's inhumanity to man, an act that left the world teetering on the brink of self-annihilation. To him and millions of supporters, though, dropping the atomic bomb was a justifiable means of shortening World War II, preserving the lives of hundreds of thousands of American servicemen that military experts said might have died in a final Allied invasion of Japan. "I never lost a night's sleep over it," Tibbets had said."
August 09, 2018, 02:03 PM
GA Gator
------------------------------ Smart is not something you are but something you get.
Chi Chi, get the yayo
August 09, 2018, 02:38 PM
deepocean
quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340: Following atomic bombings, Emperor Hirohito ordered the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War to accept the Potsdam Declaration terms for ending the war. After several more days of behind-the-scenes negotiations and a failed coup d'état, Emperor Hirohito gave a recorded radio address announcing the surrender of Japan. Given that the Japanese refused to surrender following to Tokyo fire bombing in March, I wonder if the Emporer's fear was the potential for a 400 plane raid where each plane carried atomic weapons.
I have not read of the failed coup d'état. If anyone has any details about that, I would be grateful to read them. Were there senior Japanese military leaders who wanted to continue the war?
August 09, 2018, 02:49 PM
RogueJSK
quote:
Originally posted by deepocean: I have not read of the failed coup d'état. If anyone has any details about that, I would be grateful to read them.
As for the Japanese being “forced” to go to war with the U.S., it’s hard to conceive of a more ridiculous statement. One of the things I point out about World War II is that it didn’t start with Pearl Harbor or even the German invasion of Poland. In the broad picture, it started when Japan invaded China in 1931. Did the U.S.’s refusal to sell Japan strategic materials “force” them to do that? Ludicrous!
Yes. We didn't embargo Japan out of the blue. It was part of an attempt to constrain them in the Far East, as they had been clearly moving to expand their empire at the expense of other countries, many of which were allies of ours. That they would attack in retaliation or in an effort to keep us uninvolved may have been predictable, but that isn't the same as forcing them to do anything.
If you play the game of global power politics by invading China, Korea, and parts of Russia, you can't claim innocence when their allies react.
The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
August 09, 2018, 04:34 PM
deepocean
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
quote:
Originally posted by deepocean: I have not read of the failed coup d'état. If anyone has any details about that, I would be grateful to read them.
Thank you. I still hadn't found what I was looking for.
August 09, 2018, 04:58 PM
ulsterman
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:
quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge: The Japanese committed atrocities, no doubt. But it was FDR that put Japan’s back against the wall in July 1941 with an oil embargo and forced them to later attack us.
What have you been smoking?
I understand the events but nobody forced Japan to attack us - those are revisionist history apologizist words. They were already waging war on China and other countries. We were under no commitment to sell them anything.
They rolled the dice and awoke the sleeping giant. They lost and lost hard. And the best thing about the atomic bomb was we gave it to them a second time.
I hope that if they had held out longer, we would have continued to wipe their cities from the map in an organized fashion with more A-bombs.
Here endith the lesson.
Do you really think that the United States would not attack someone else if we suddenly lost about 80% of our oil? No economy can survive with that type of damage. To think otherwise is risible.
And why did FDR take that action? Wasn't out of spite. "President Franklin Roosevelt seizes all Japanese assets in the United States in retaliation for the Japanese occupation of French Indo-China."
August 09, 2018, 06:51 PM
zimman20
quote:
Originally posted by deepocean:
quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340: Following atomic bombings, Emperor Hirohito ordered the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War to accept the Potsdam Declaration terms for ending the war. After several more days of behind-the-scenes negotiations and a failed coup d'état, Emperor Hirohito gave a recorded radio address announcing the surrender of Japan. Given that the Japanese refused to surrender following to Tokyo fire bombing in March, I wonder if the Emporer's fear was the potential for a 400 plane raid where each plane carried atomic weapons.
I have not read of the failed coup d'état. If anyone has any details about that, I would be grateful to read them. Were there senior Japanese military leaders who wanted to continue the war?
If you ever get a chance to visit the Missouri in Honolulu they have pictures from the day the surrender was signed on that deck. It's a little awe-inspiring to be standing on that deck, they have pictures mounted in that area that show where the table was where that the Japanese delegation signed.
The point of the above is to communicate just how pissed off some of them looked to be there and surrendering at all. There was definitely a core group that did not want to surrender and were very much there against their will, signing that document.
Originally posted by PowerSurge: Do you really think that the United States would not attack someone else if we suddenly lost about 80% of our oil? No economy can survive with that type of damage. To think otherwise is risible.
So, the US imposed an embargo. Big deal.
Other countries produced, refined, and sold petroleum products. Japan needed only to go to those countries and pay their price.
But they didn't. Why?
Because the militarists in Japan truly believed they were entitled to that oil. And rubber. And a bazillion other commodities. To be sure they wanted to get rich from selling those commodities to their own population and China, but they also believed it was theirs because they viewed themselves as superior to all other Asian people, plus most western ones too. It was the same fundamental greed that led the Nazis to invade Poland (liebenstrausem) Ukraine (wheat), the Caucuses (oil), and Africa (the Suez Canal and the gateway to Arabian oil).
Since they didn't own or control those commodities they decided to steal them. Tom Clancy made a comment in one of his Jack Ryan books that war is essentially armed robbery on a grand scale. That is true, and you only need look at WWII and the Iraq I to see perfect examples.
So they started by stealing Manchuria and China, then went of to try to establish the Greater Southeastern Co-prosperity Sphere. And make no mistake, the Japanese intended to enslave the people of the countries they conquered, until such time as they could kill them all (like the Nazis).
They forgot one thing. Others already controlled those resources. And those others weren't giving them up without a fight.
Nice is overrated
"It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018
August 09, 2018, 07:44 PM
satch
I read Bill O'Reillys book The Day the World went Nuclear, and it's a good account of history. Bockscar almost didn't make it back after dropping it's bomb. They had to change targets and with the extra flying time used up a lot of extra fuel, they landed on an Okinawa airfield and after just a short taxi the engines started shutting down.
August 09, 2018, 08:12 PM
220-9er
On my only visit to the Air Force Museum, I was looking at Bockscar and noticed a group of Japanese tourists with cameras and looking too. I wondered what they might be thinking. My understanding is that they are taught a somewhat different version of the story than we are.
