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ELECTRICIANS new pool wiring questions. Login/Join 
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Picture of cparktd
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For SKINS or whoever with experience.

Well let the fun begin!
New Pool coming on the 22nd. Above Ground. Below is rough diagram of the install.

Power needed for...
Pump: 13.5 Amp @ 120V. 2 HP. Prewired cord. 20A twist lock. Must be 6 feet from pool min.
Ion generator: load unknown but very small I'm told, 120V. Prewired cord. 20A twist lock. Must be at 6 feet from pool min.
LED light: corded (transformer at plug and sw inline near transformer), Standard 120V plug. Load unknown but very little.
Convenience rec. 120V




Questions... for starters.

Wire size and type. 200 foot run to the pump. Half way in attic, then half in ground in conduit.
Pull all circuits to main panel or add sub panel?
Where to put sub panel if added, corner of house or at pool?
Can the in pool (under water) LED 12 volt light just plug into a Convenience rec?
Can the twist lock plugs serve as the required disconnects?
PVC conduit, 18" deep... OR... 12" deep if all conductors GFI protected, correct?

There will be more questions!

Corner of house, potential sub panel location. Wire coming out of attic through the siding then down the wall in conduit to underground then to pool.





Pump specs.





Andddddd. Before ya'll roast me and say I just need to just hire a Electrician... you know because dangerous and stuff... I AM an electrician. Well I WAS a residential electrician for ~18 years... but that was 30 years ago, until I switched occupations. Wired many houses, including this one in 1975. Just never did many pools and stuff changes. I actually had an electrician scheduled for a consultation but he was a no call no show...



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Posts: 2588 | Location: Middle Tennessee | Registered: February 07, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I guess I forgot to mention that I might go directly from the main box to the pool but it would be a rough go. Sidewalk and many trees and rocks. Some of the boulders are just under the grass. I could rent a trencher and try to snake it through I guess.



Deplorable before deplorable was cool!
 
Posts: 2588 | Location: Middle Tennessee | Registered: February 07, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
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Not an electrician, just a farmer. I don't play with anything bigger than 480v, and I am very careful when I play with that.

quote:
Questions... for starters.

Wire size and type. 200 foot run to the pump. Half way in attic, then half in ground in conduit.


Check with your local code, but I am going to guess THHN, and surely there is a book laying around with the table for required wire size per run length. Is your 13.5 Amp load the standard run load or the peak load on motor start?

Hey, if you are plugging a 20A twist lock into the outlet, doesn't that mean your are putting in a 20A outlet, which if I am not mistaken would require 12 AWG wire (unless the length of run requires heavier)?

quote:

Pull all circuits to main panel or add sub panel?


Whatever you like, but I'm a fan of running heavier wire to a subpanel. One of the advantages of this is that if you ever want to add something out by the pool, you can.

quote:
Where to put sub panel if added, corner of house or at pool?

All depends on your yard. Two thoughts would go into where to put the subpanel: How far away from the pool does it need to be by code, and where do I have a reasonable place to put it? I can imagine a beautiful park-like yard that I might not want to put an electrical box in the middle of. I can also imagine a structure or wall that an electrical box would make sense on and disappear on. Only you know what will look right at your place. (Or maybe only your wife does, depends if you are married. Smile )

I don't remember the requirement on disconnect, and since I am in a different state, it may well be different where you are anyway. There may be a code requirement that the disconnect is within a certain number of feet from the pool. If so, that may trump aesthetics.

quote:
Can the in pool (under water) LED 12 volt light just plug into a Convenience rec?

No idea, this is a code question.

quote:
Can the twist lock plugs serve as the required disconnects?

Again, no idea, this is a code question, but if I just got out of the pool soaking wet and needed to turn something off, I would not want to use a twist lock plug with my wet dripping hands as the disconnect mechanism.

quote:
PVC conduit, 18" deep... OR... 12" deep if all conductors GFI protected, correct?

Again, code question, don't know. Around here, the 18 inches was right, but in the yard I went 3' with gas lines and 2' with electrical so I didn't have to worry about tearing any of that stuff up when putting in sprinklers, etc. YMMV.

quote:
There will be more questions!

Corner of house, potential sub panel location. Wire coming out of attic through the siding then down the wall in conduit to underground then to pool.


ETA: If you put your subpanel on the house, or run wires all the way back to the main panel, put plenty of extra conduits in just in case you want to add something later. If your subpanel is closer to the pool, this may be less of an issue. You never know when you might want to add a beer fridge or some mood lighting near the pool... Smile Trenching is a pain, and it is better to do only once...
 
Posts: 4406 | Registered: February 23, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
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Pool electric is a different field than anything I do. Sorry, no help here.

I can answer a few questions though. 18", 12" is only allowed for 20a or less and GFI protected.

Subpanel may be best option for a couple reasons. First I'm pretty sure the electrical needs to be in conduit the entire run and running conduit inside of a house is not fun. Second you can oversize it and leave a 20a outlet on the side of the house for things like saws, pressure washers, and for workman to use or for landscape lighting. Third it's usually cheaper and easier to use sub.



Jesse

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Posts: 15095 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: December 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm not an electrician, but would running a 240v pump allow you to use smaller wire? With a 200ft run from the sub-panel to the pump there could be a significant savings.
 
Posts: 5268 | Location: SWFL | Registered: October 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by trapper189:
would running a 240v pump allow you to use smaller wire? With a 200ft run from the sub-panel to the pump there could be a significant savings.


184 feet @3% max voltage drop requires #8 for 13.5 Amps. 200 feet requires #6 according to an online calculator I found. 200 feet a @ 7 Amps 240V it drops to #12!

13.5 is the running amps...

Looks like sub panel at pump is the way to go.

Motor is 2 speed... switch internal to the pump and and listed for 120V only on the label so... IDK if converting to 240 is possible. That would help. May email Mfg.

Conduit not required for the portion of wiring within the house as of older code, but above ground pools only. I don't know yet which code the county has adopted.

according to an online calculator I found... 184 feet @3% max voltage drop requires #8 for 13.5 Amps. 200 feet requires #6 200 feet a @ 7 Amps 240V it drops to #12!



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Posts: 2588 | Location: Middle Tennessee | Registered: February 07, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What has been said re wire size. + dedicated pump circuit, 2nd ckt for the rest. Dump twistlocks. hardwire to a manual WP switch, separate disconnect (pull fuses).



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Posts: 5143 | Location: Duckburg, OR | Registered: September 01, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
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What are the bonding requirements for above ground pool? Are they the same as inground?



Jesse

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Posts: 15095 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: December 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Thank you
Very little
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On our pool they run a sub panel off the back of the house near the pool pump/equipment, it has a separate breaker so that you can turn off the power at the pump.

Feeds back to the main box in the garage for the whole house.

From there down the side of the house under ground (about 4 feet) to the pump which sits on
a concrete slab, pump body is grounded back into the ground for lightening protection.



"My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them." Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 14025 | Location: FL | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not an electrician but an electronics engineer. I have wired entire houses and studied the NEC.

I tend to over engineer but this is what I would do.

I would run a 240 volt 6/3 copper from the main panel to a sub panel then 120 volt 10/2 from sub to pump. I would use a 30a 2pole breaker at main panel and 15a gfci breaker for pump.
 
Posts: 946 | Location: Ohio | Registered: August 22, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Skins2881:
What are the bonding requirements for above ground pool? Are they the same as inground?


Bonding is being done by the pool installers.



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Posts: 2588 | Location: Middle Tennessee | Registered: February 07, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by nshumway:
Not an electrician but an electronics engineer. I have wired entire houses and studied the NEC.

I tend to over engineer but this is what I would do.

I would run a 240 volt 6/3 copper from the main panel to a sub panel then 120 volt 10/2 from sub to pump. I would use a 30a 2pole breaker at main panel and 15a gfci breaker for pump.


Yea, I read the NEC cover to cover 2 times back in the early 70's, LOL! Plus many many sections as needed when first starting out.

Very likely that is similar / what we will do. But it will be 6/3 with ground. Sub panel requires non bonded neutral and ground. 6/3 w Ground in house... #6 THWN x 3 plus #12 min bare ground in conduit (wet location per code)



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Posts: 2588 | Location: Middle Tennessee | Registered: February 07, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Progress! Learning as I go...

Found out that the Electrical Inspector can not give recommendations for Electricians to hire... make sense, conflict of interest, potential for bribes.

The Electrical Inspector will... for 50 bucks... come on site and preform a official consult. Laying out exactly the requirements, money well spent I expect!

My Homeowners liability does not cover the pool unless it is fenced in or wrapped 360° by a deck with railing and auto latching gate with the latch at 54" high. This is in addition to State code that does not require fencing unless the pool is shorter then 48" high from the ground .

Have an owner operator licensed electrician coming in the morning that has extensive experience with pools.


Thanks everyone!



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Posts: 2588 | Location: Middle Tennessee | Registered: February 07, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes, all wiring would be with ground
 
Posts: 946 | Location: Ohio | Registered: August 22, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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BASTIDS OUT!
Picture of yanici
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quote:
Originally posted by cparktd:
Progress! Learning as I go...

Found out that the Electrical Inspector can not give recommendations for Electricians to hire... make sense, conflict of interest, potential for bribes.

The Electrical Inspector will... for 50 bucks... come on site and preform a official consult. Laying out exactly the requirements, money well spent I expect!

My Homeowners liability does not cover the pool unless it is fenced in or wrapped 360° by a deck with railing and auto latching gate with the latch at 54" high. This is in addition to State code that does not require fencing unless the pool is shorter then 48" high from the ground .

Have an owner operator licensed electrician coming in the morning that has extensive experience with pools.


Thanks everyone!


Best thing for you. The National Electrical Code is very stringent and the section on pool wiring can be overwhelming. Hell, you even have to bond the water in the pool to your equipotential grounding grid now. Not a job for amateurs.


John

"Building a wall will violate the rights of millions of illegals." [Nancy Pelosi]
 
Posts: 2050 | Location: N.E. Massachusetts | Registered: June 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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