quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
Unbelievable.

This couldn't possibly be a justified shooting in any way that I could imagine. And yes, I realize I'm saying that with not many facts.

Your legs tired?

quote:

Originally posted by Jimbo54:

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:
No details have been released but all I can think of is an accidental discharge. The department hasn't relaxed any standards so until some details are made public, it's a guessing game.

The problem with that is that she was shot multiple times according to the initial report. That pretty much eliminates an ND.

Jim

If there is one thing I have learned over the years, it's this. The media always gets the facts wrong. Always. Especially initial reports. Always.

So who knows if in fact she really was shot multiple times or just once.

quote:

Originally posted by CPTKILLER:
Too many foolish errors. This Officer Noor is one of many things:

Ignorant

Poorly trained

A rogue cop

Criminal

Another EOO individual who was picked for the job based on race, religion, and nationality rather than competence.

Add another category: straight up Idiot who was pushed through the Academy and Field Training despite being an idiot just so the City and PD can show they are PC and diversity is a wonderful thing (see my comment below on ‘first whatever”). The only way you will find out how he did in the academy and Field Training is if a civil suit goes to court. The rank and file officers will talk.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:
I just wonder if there is a training officer somewhere thinking to himself while he shakes his head, "I fucking told them so"...

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner. I can almost guarantee the training officer and his sergeant kept their copies of his training evaluations. Me and an FTO were overruled twice on trainees, we said they both needed much more training and supervision. The bosses overruled us and put the trainee into the next phase where they failed miserably within a week. The Bosses’ only comment, ‘Yep, you were right.”.

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
I find the silence that has gone on for two days troubling.
H&K-Guy

Two reason for this:

1. This is a WTF happen investigation and the only one who can really tell what happened is the officer who shot the lady. Ballistics and statement from the other officer can tell you what happened, but only the officer who shot can tell you why it happened and he may not be giving any statements or has given conflicting statements.

2. The second explanation is because this officer was the “first whatever”. Firsts that are pushed through the system are usually held to much lower standards and that fail to met those standards. City Hall and the Chief’s Office are sanitizing all of the officer’s paperwork, making sure there isn’t anything in his file saying “this trainee is a straight up idiot.”

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
Unbelievable.

This couldn't possibly be a justified shooting in any way that I could imagine. And yes, I realize I'm saying that with not many facts.

Your legs tired?

Is that a pick up line? Have I been running through your mind all day?

In the old days, when we were taught the 'Force Continuum', lethal force was only introduced in situations where you were in fear of equal force. The escalation of force is determined largely by the other party.

According the situation, as we have it, the Australian woman would have to have escalated the situation to that level.

Either that, or Mr. Noors is an idiot.

Maybe Chongo, or some other respected SigForum LEO, can correct me.

H&K-Guy

quote:

Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
In the old days, when we were taught the 'Force Continuum', lethal force was only introduced in situations where you were in fear of equal force. The escalation of force is determined largely by the other party.

According the the situation, as we have it, the Australian woman would have to have escalated the situation to that level.

Either that, or Mr. Noors is an idiot.

Maybe Chongo, or some other respected SigForum LEO, can correct me.

H&K-Guy

See my post above.

Wow. I'd like to know what really happened.

And as an aside, if this was a diversity hire and not based on merit, mgmt heads need to roll. They need to be held accountable for these decisions. But for their policy, if the women was entirely innocent, an person is dead that shouldn't be.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Wow. I'd like to know what really happened.

And as an aside, if this was a diversity hire and not based on merit, mgmt heads need to roll. They need to be held accountable for these decisions. But for their policy, if the women was entirely innocent, an person is dead that shouldn't be.

The Minneapolis Police Chief, Janee Harteau, happens to be openly gay. The LEO in question, Mr Noors, happens to be Somali. It shouldn't matter.

But sadly, many times it does.

H&K-Guy

It's relatively easy to imagine a completely plausible scenario where it could be justified... just as easy to imagine s scenario where it is not. Those are both facts. Also a fact: all media reports should be taken with no small dose of suspicion.

I'm not saying it was justified, not saying it wasn't justified. Just saying wait and see.

And also just saying the agency should have done a better job of getting in front of it no matter how it went down, from justified to blatant murder and everything in between.

I suspect the politicians will cover everything up, and blame it on the officer. The pols almost never take the blame, and do not lose their jobs. Most likely, as mentioned above, the officer should have never made it through training. Either a ND, or an idiot for an officer.

to jsbcody:

I think you have laid it out quite well. Thank you.

It may be there, real or contrived, but I really don't see any plausible scenario that would exonerate the shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
It's relatively easy to imagine a completely plausible scenario where it could be justified... just as easy to imagine s scenario where it is not. Those are both facts.

Well, I may have a limited imagination, but I find it at least a BIT easier to come up with unjustified scenarios.

If the victim was a women in pajamas who called cops to report a suspected assault, I'm probably leaning toward unjustified as default.

Although I'm not sure why she's outside in pajamas if she's suspecting there is an assault occurring nearby....

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimbo54:

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:
No details have been released but all I can think of is an accidental discharge. The department hasn't relaxed any standards so until some details are made public, it's a guessing game.

The problem with that is that she was shot multiple times according to the initial report. That pretty much eliminates an ND.

Jim

If there is one thing I have learned over the years, it's this. The media always gets the facts wrong. Always. Especially initial reports. Always.

So who knows if in fact she really was shot multiple times or just once.

There are 2 facts that have immerged from people that were there. It was that the cop in the passenger seat did the shooting and that there were multiple shots fired. These, coming from witnesses at the time. Fox has a video with interviews of people there at the time.

All else seems to be speculation.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
It's relatively easy to imagine a completely plausible scenario where it could be justified...

You'll have to enlighten me.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
It's relatively easy to imagine a completely plausible scenario where it could be justified...

You'll have to enlighten me.

Folding pocket knife concealed in a hand suddenly unconcealed while talking at the window and thrust at the driver. Totally justified to shoot that person.

Lady talking at window grabs something from the drivers belt. Easily justifiable given some parameters.

Heck, even a ball point pen jabbed in my partners neck could elicit a justifiable deadly force response from me.

Maybe it's easier for me to think situations where it could be justifiable as a LE firearms and less lethal options trainer. I dunno.

I'm just saying it's easy to think of a scenario where it could happen. I'm not saying it did. I'm passing zero judgement about the justifiableness one way or the other, just trying to get some of you all the widen your vision a little.

You have to think that if she had a weapon of any type they would have commented on that immediately.

The delay is all about 'getting our spin on the story straight' IMO.

----------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
It's relatively easy to imagine a completely plausible scenario where it could be justified... just as easy to imagine s scenario where it is not. Those are both facts.

Well, I may have a limited imagination, but I find it at least a BIT easier to come up with unjustified scenarios.

Sure it's easier... practically all of life would be a scenario where shooting her isn't a correctvand proper response.

See my post above for quick examples of the opposite. Once you have read that you'all likely go "oh, ok. I see how it might happen" and maybe even come up with a possibility yourself.

If you don't train officers to defend themselves I can totally see how your mind might not jump to non-obvious answers.

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
It's relatively easy to imagine a completely plausible scenario where it could be justified...

You'll have to enlighten me.

Folding pocket knife concealed in a hand suddenly unconcealed while talking at the window and thrust at the driver. Totally justified to shoot that person.

Lady talking at window grabs something from the drivers belt. Easily justifiable given some parameters.

Heck, even a ball point pen jabbed in my partners neck could elicit a justifiable deadly force response from me.

Maybe it's easier for me to think situations where it could be justifiable as a LE firearms and less lethal options trainer. I dunno.

I'm just saying it's easy to think of a scenario where it could happen. I'm not saying it did. I'm passing zero judgement about the justifiableness one way or the other, just trying to get some of you all the widen your vision a little.

That is a possible scenario, but exceedingly unlikely in this case.

When things like this happen,the real story always comes out later. Para is right in discouraging breaking news on any shootings.