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Casuistic Thinker and Daoist |
Pretty standard procedure. While an officer might be required to answer some questions within their own department, speaking with investigators of an outside agency usually entails involving legal representation. We had an IA Sgt who addressed out academy who encouraged use to talk with IA investigators  , but also advised us to always retain legal representation when being investigated by State or Federal agencies
Typically the driver's main responsibility is to drive the vehicle. In a two-person car, it is the responsibility of the passenger officer to act as the Cover Officer No, Daoism isn't a religion | |||
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Get Off My Lawn |
One thing that is puzzling me; was Noor riding in the passenger seat with his sidearm already drawn while going thru the alley? If this situation was a highly stressful chase of known hostiles, I can see that, but an unholstered handgun on a routine call? Normal or abnormal procedure? And if not, how long does it take to draw from a LE issued retention holster while seated in the front seat of a car? Fast enough to accidentally shoot a citizen by mistake? "I’m not going to read Time Magazine, I’m not going to read Newsweek, I’m not going to read any of these magazines; I mean, because they have too much to lose by printing the truth"- Bob Dylan, 1965 | |||
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Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
My suspicion is that these two officers were already suspicious of the call, and probably convinced each other that they could very well be driving into an ambush. They then rolled up into a darkened alley, and--having already jacked themselves up at the possibility of an ambush--it all of a sudden started to become a reality for them when they saw a suspicious person on a bike and then "heard a noise." Noor had his gun drawn because in his mind there was no doubt what they were driving into after convincing each other of it. Everything that then started happening around him just made it real. Unfortunately, it wasn't real at all but an illusion created by his already adrenaline filled, jacked up state. It wasn't an ambush at all; just a woman in her PJ's tapping on the car to get their attention. Now how's that for some Grade A internet speculating?  ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan "Once there was only dark. If you ask me, light is winning." ~Rust Cohle | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
I think Balze may be pretty close given what we know. The officers drove 600 feet w/o lights down the alley from w 50th st to W 51th st at the end of the alley, they heard loud sounds, now thought to be fireworks. Maybe that is when Noor drew his gun then the lady appeared at the window. note her house is over 350 feet from the shooting scene. A tragedy for sure, no matter how the details fall out.  the shooting scene the patrol car came south thru the alley in the pic it stopped near the pole on the left the lady approached the driver door that would have been generally in the bottom middle | |||
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Cat Whisperer |
I thought the NYC cop was just sitting in her car, not responding to a call when someone came up from behind and was killed. I dont see even the vaguest detail that would let you draw comparisons besides them both being cops, and black. ------------------------------------ 135 ├┼┼╕ 246R | |||
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Unflappable Enginerd |
So now they think they are going to be "ambushed" but don't turn ANY recording devices(body cam et al) on? Am I reading this correctly? __________________________________ NRA Benefactor I lost all my weapons in a boating, umm, accident. http://www.aufamily.com/forums/ | |||
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Member |
It didn't occur to me that the BCA was third party. Innocent or not, I agree that legal rep is appropriate for third party discussions. Internally, especially if clearly innocent / reasonable / justifiable, seems like expedient reporting would be be better. If debatable, then legal rep is appropriate. Assuming of course that the department is reasonable and not looking for a scapegoat. Big if, seems like these days. Driver driving makes sense. So, even if he felt a threat, he would remain focused on driving / evading rather than responding with force. Leave that to the passenger. "Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy "A government is just a body of people, usually, notably, ungoverned." Shepherd Book | |||
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| Member |
It may be reasonable to be concerned, but if they argue that it was also reasonable to respond to that concern by shooting her I think it's nuts. If they push the "I was in fear for my life" that far beyond ridiculous as justification, they may find the legislature tightening up the law. | |||
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| Member |
It's reasonable to be concerned and be wary. It's entirely different to assume that this was a reasonable shooting. That a competent, well trained officer would have reasonably fired is unknown pending the facts. The real facts would tell, if we ever get to see them. But I'm doubtful that we'll see anything but a sanitized, exculpatory version. "Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy "A government is just a body of people, usually, notably, ungoverned." Shepherd Book | |||
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| Member |
I'm curious. It has already been established (by BCA) that no weapon was recovered at the scene. Not a gun. Not a knife. Not on the ground. Not in her pocket. Nothing. What fact could possibly come to light that would lead you to believe that Noor was justified in shooting her? | |||
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safe & sound |
Nothing needs to come to light. As things are, if an officer feels his life is in danger, he can defend it with deadly force. The reality of the situation (no threat) has nothing to do with the fantasy of the situation (they're trying to kill us). | |||
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| Non-Miscreant |
We've discussed reasonableness. How often do you see women out at night in their "jammies?" And comfortable walking 350 feet from their house? I guess she has the right to do as she pleases, but she'd already complained about a possible sexual crime in progress. So she goes out in almost nothing to see? Another point made earlier was he's toast on the job. Unless he comes up with some pretty good story, he needs to be in another line of work. I'm not sure anyone wants a trigger happy scardy cat out with a gun at night. Regardless if he's prosecuted for some crime or not, he's pretty well wrecked any career he had. Unhappy ammo seeker | |||
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| Member |
The MN law still requires that fear needs to be "reasonable". I expect we are going to see prosecutors and juries tightening up on their benefit of the doubt meter as a result of these recent cases. | |||
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| Member |
I guess the Australian Dept of State needs to run more 'Hands up, don't shoot' adds on travel to the U.S. Perhaps they can engage someone from the BLM movement to handle this travel info ads for them? Looks like a bad situation all around. The victim should have stayed at her house, waiting for the officers to arrive. Why go outside in the dark, unarmed? Common sense here is absent. In day light perhaps, armed and having given the dispatcher an excellent description of the good guy - me. With all the 'hits' on officers in the last few years, I can understand their panicky state, especially on a suspected call that tends to fit the parameters of an ambush. His training report should be scrutinized, and his time/actions while on the force too, to judge the competency of his decision making. The whole incident it weird. -.-. --.- -.-. --.- -.-. --.- -.-. --.- It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master. Ayn Rand "He gains votes ever and anew by taking money from everybody and giving it to a few, while explaining that every penny was extracted from the few to be giving to the many." Ogden Nash from his poem - The Politician | |||
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| Member |
I'm doubtful that the shooting was justified. Pending the facts, I'm allowing for the possibility that something occurred for which a reasonable and competent officer would have fired. But again, I'm doubtful given the story presented. The possibility includes situations where obviously perception is critical since no weapons were found associated to the victim. Since no weapon was found, other then some reasonable perception by a competent officer, shooting is uncalled for. "Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy "A government is just a body of people, usually, notably, ungoverned." Shepherd Book | |||
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| Member |
If the graphic showing the locations of the 911 caller's house versus where the police car encountered the victim are accurate, her actions don't necessarily show poor judgement. The picture indicates the squad car drove past her residence and continued down the alley. She probably saw them, realized they had gone too far and then ran outside to catch them before they left. She wouldn't have had time to change into street clothes. Also, why would arming herself be necessary in this situation? A reasonable person's primary concern would be that they might be attacked by a bad guy (presumably the person possibly assaulting someone in the alley). With a marked police car nearby, that worry would be diminished. It probably never crossed her mind that she might be attacked by the officers who were in that car. | |||
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| Member |
We need to understand the facts in this case to reach a judgment. In general, though, if I'm driving and fear an ambush by someone approaching from behind, the gas pedal is probably my "go to" solution. | |||
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| Member |
Yep | |||
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| No double standards |
But I imagine that when the officers official account of the events does come out, it will be well crafted and calculated to justify his actions. "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it" - Judge Learned Hand, May 1944 | |||
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| Member |
Agree. I wouldn't be surprised. "Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy "A government is just a body of people, usually, notably, ungoverned." Shepherd Book | |||
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