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Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

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Originally posted by gearhounds:

Please. I watched the same video you did. I’ve been in similar situations. I’ve done my share of vestigations. When another officer is going back and forth on SFST’s, it’s obvious that the guy is failing to follow commands. If you are doing your job, you are paying attention (ie- situational awareness). At that point, you stop what you’re done by and change gears. “Precog”, as you put it, does not exist, but awareness does. He was close enough to hear the exchange, and see the resistant behavior.

As to the pen, we train in a scenario where you have to draw, you clear your hands. Automatically and reflexively. Handcuffs, batons, notepads, and yes, even pens.

And what about the person he's actually dealing with? Is he supposed to completely disengage from her? What if she turns out to be the aggressor? Now both officers have their backs to her.

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Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

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Originally posted by gearhounds:

Please. I watched the same video you did. I’ve been in similar situations. I’ve done my share of vestigations. When another officer is going back and forth on SFST’s, it’s obvious that the guy is failing to follow commands. If you are doing your job, you are paying attention (ie- situational awareness). At that point, you stop what you’re done by and change gears. “Precog”, as you put it, does not exist, but awareness does. He was close enough to hear the exchange, and see the resistant behavior.

As to the pen, we train in a scenario where you have to draw, you clear your hands. Automatically and reflexively. Handcuffs, batons, notepads, and yes, even pens.

And what about the person he's actually dealing with? Is he supposed to completely disengage from her? What if she turns out to be the aggressor? Now both officers have their backs to her.

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Originally posted by gearhounds:

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
You know, I seemed to remember you were LEO, which is why your response surprised me. I'm sure you would have done it better.

No need to get snarky; no one knows for sure how they will respond until they’re in a similar scenario. I only know how I do business, and what I expect from my partners.

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Originally posted by gearhounds:
Good question- you deal with things as they unfold and prioritize. In this scenario, someone failing to follow commands and trotting away would trump someone that is giving requested information. I wouldn’t forget they exist, but focus should shift.

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

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Originally posted by gearhounds:

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
You know, I seemed to remember you were LEO, which is why your response surprised me. I'm sure you would have done it better.

No need to get snarky; no one knows for sure how they will respond until they’re in a similar scenario. I only know how I do business, and what I expect from my partners.

There's perhaps less snark there than you're reading into it since you're the one criticizing the actions of the second officer. I was giving the officer the benefit of the doubt. As you say, we watched the same video. However, often these conversations go the other way with LEO's on the board here saying that the video doesn't accurately represent what the officer wearing the camera saw or heard, which has been strenuously argued a few times by a respondent to this very thread. When the bodycam footage from the officer across the railroad tracks begins, all prior audio at conversational levels for what's going on at the truck would likely have been difficult to hear over the road noise, which is about all we hear at that point, but we don't get to have that comparison because that footage isn't provided. Then we hear "Ken!" and his head snaps over. We don't know if he wasn't paying attention at all before that, and I wouldn't try to say he wasn't, because we don't know. We also don't get to hear the "Don't touch it!" shouted by the officer across the road to compare what kind of voice levels would have been audible over the road noise because the video cuts out before then. Before the officer who killed the guy shouts "Ken!" the body language of both parties was completely casual and relaxed.

If you're going to gig the second officer on situational awareness off the very little bit of video we're seeing of the whole event, I'm hoping you don't get involved in a similarly shitty situation. It's usually the LEO's saying "we don't know what the dispatchers told the responding units, we don't know what we saw when they rolled up, we don't know anything other than a few seconds of footage, and that's not the whole picture and not how you properly judge the response of force." I feel kind of silly right now defending the guy, but the fact is, the perp was looking at him and not the guy that dropped him, and at the end of the day, both officers went home. I immediately notice grey sideburns and a wrinkled face. I'm also willing to wager his hearing is maybe not Walker Game Ear level, especially given all the ambient noise.

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Originally posted by gearhounds:
Good question- you deal with things as they unfold and prioritize. In this scenario, someone failing to follow commands and trotting away would trump someone that is giving requested information. I wouldn’t forget they exist, but focus should shift.

And in this case, it did. However, my argument is that perhaps no matter how vigilant the second officer may have been, he simply may not have ever been able to hear that the suspect was failing to follow commands. Fair enough?

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Originally posted by gearhounds:

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

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Originally posted by gearhounds:

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
You know, I seemed to remember you were LEO, which is why your response surprised me. I'm sure you would have done it better.

No need to get snarky; no one knows for sure how they will respond until they’re in a similar scenario. I only know how I do business, and what I expect from my partners.

There's perhaps less snark there than you're reading into it since you're the one criticizing the actions of the second officer. I was giving the officer the benefit of the doubt. As you say, we watched the same video. However, often these conversations go the other way with LEO's on the board here saying that the video doesn't accurately represent what the officer wearing the camera saw or heard, which has been strenuously argued a few times by a respondent to this very thread. When the bodycam footage from the officer across the railroad tracks begins, all prior audio at conversational levels for what's going on at the truck would likely have been difficult to hear over the road noise, which is about all we hear at that point, but we don't get to have that comparison because that footage isn't provided. Then we hear "Ken!" and his head snaps over. We don't know if he wasn't paying attention at all before that, and I wouldn't try to say he wasn't, because we don't know. We also don't get to hear the "Don't touch it!" shouted by the officer across the road to compare what kind of voice levels would have been audible over the road noise because the video cuts out before then. Before the officer who killed the guy shouts "Ken!" the body language of both parties was completely casual and relaxed.

If you're going to gig the second officer on situational awareness off the very little bit of video we're seeing of the whole event, I'm hoping you don't get involved in a similarly shitty situation. It's usually the LEO's saying "we don't know what the dispatchers told the responding units, we don't know what we saw when they rolled up, we don't know anything other than a few seconds of footage, and that's not the whole picture and not how you properly judge the response of force." I feel kind of silly right now defending the guy, but the fact is, the perp was looking at him and not the guy that dropped him, and at the end of the day, both officers went home. I immediately notice grey sideburns and a wrinkled face. I'm also willing to wager his hearing is maybe not Walker Game Ear level, especially given all the ambient noise.

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Originally posted by gearhounds:
Good question- you deal with things as they unfold and prioritize. In this scenario, someone failing to follow commands and trotting away would trump someone that is giving requested information. I wouldn’t forget they exist, but focus should shift.

And in this case, it did. However, my argument is that perhaps no matter how vigilant the second officer may have been, he simply may not have ever been able to hear that the suspect was failing to follow commands. Fair enough?

Thanks for your concern about my abilities. I have been in similar situations where a lesser level of force was applied by both of us. My focus shifted in those scenarios from different factors. When you’re interviewing someone in a dual contact, you do so so that you have eyes on. You watch and you listen. You watch body language. You ask your partner if he’s good if you see something amiss. And yes, I’ve seen things, where ambient noise was an issue. I’ve been doing it for almost 26 years, and the methodology hasn’t failed me yet.

Back to the pen. My buddies and I would call this a “brain fart” and debrief it later. We don’t refer to it as Monday morning QB’ing. Let me ask- do you ever train to clear your hands as you draw? Keys, drink cups, an item approximating a cell phone? If not, it’s a good idea. If you have time to draw, you have time to drop things as you do. If I was brain farting and fumbling with things in my hands while drawing, I’d want to hear about it, rather than pussyfooting around my feelings because I’m 53 instead of 23.

And no hard feelings here. I respect your opinion, and recognize that I’m not a Hollywood supercop.

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Originally posted by hunter62:
I know the video isn’t the same as being there, but my first thought would have been he is grabbing a rock or something. I certainly wasn’t expecting him to find a gun in the bushes, so I would have hesitated. Had the BG wanted to shoot and kill, he had the opportunity while the one guy ran away. Definitely weird, DUI to grabbing a gun and getting shot. Drugged up on something. I am happy with the end result.