It reminds me of a Steven Segal movie (no flames please).

He was clearly outnumbered and had a handgun. One of the BG's said, c'mon, he can't kill all of us. SG shot that guy and said, "you're right, but I'll get an "A" for effort".

I have only once been put in a situation where I could have easily been killed. I had lost my mind when confronting a group of thugs. I was beyond the point of no return and challenged the group when they threatened to throw me off the skywalk. Like I said, I was Mel Gibson crazy and did not give a fuck. I was ready to go, or die trying. The group backed off when one f them said, "this motherfucker is crazy".

Was it smart? Hell no. But I was in my 30's and I had been pushed to my limit.

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:


Where at?
My Dad was at 82nd & Anthony.
Mom was 82nd & Colfax, Grandfathers store was on the corner of 83rd & Saganaw. He closed the store about '75-'76 ish.

I grew up my grade school days on 84th and Marquette (mid to late 70's). St. Mary Magdalene Church was across the street and there was a drug store on the corner. On the East side, I was on 104th and Ave. J.

Small friggin' world!

But,But,this can't be real. This is from Texas.They don't allow that sort of thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Not to absolve the mob but, in terms of inner city survival, never ask a question to which you don't know what the answer will be or you won't like what the answer will be.

"Hey, can you stop smoking marijuana?"

Didn't he have the ability to move to a different car on the train?

Therein lies the problem.

For far too long, decent people have been "moving to a different car". Some people are getting a little sick of this bullshit. I used to patrol the East Side of Chicago, South Shore neighborhood, South Chicago, Stony Island Park... The neighborhoods where my Mom and Dad were raised. The neighborhood where my Grandfather had a corner butcher shop. The neighborhood where, even being in the middle of a city, you could still keep your doors unlocked, and not worry.

Now? A fucking war zone. I snow-plow in the winter, we have the account for the church where my Mother, Grandmother and Great Grandmother went. I don't go without a spare magazine.

Why? Because people "moved to a different car". I can tell you about 30 neighborhoods & suburbs just like that. And that's just here, in Chicago. What about other Cities? How many more there?

(normal)People are generally non-confrontational, and don't want a disturbance, an argument more or less a physical interaction with another human. So what's the best course of action? "Move to a different car". Until you have no where else to move to... Then there's this fight or flight thing. Hopefully one knows how to fight.



The last dickhead we had in the Oval Office did nothing but foster this lawless attitude amongst the savages. More people need to start waking up and standing up to this bullshit! YES!!! By all means read and watch ANYTHING by Colin Flaherty. Start connecting the dots that the liberal media glosses over; ie. the same thing happens all over the country, and the news (for some odd reason) puts out a vague description of the offenders... but omits race. It's getting pretty bad when someone gets the shit beat out of them for asking a question as simple as "Can you act like a normal member of society?" in public, and no one does a damn thing but film it on a stupid cell phone.


Again, more and more decent people need to start standing up to this savagery from a certain segment of society, and stop "moving to a different car". It does nothing but embolden them when you move. When it happens to be the next Bernie Geotz / Paul Kersey, so be it... I'm in for $50 for his on-line fund. If it happens here, and I ever cross paths with him, I swear that he was the FASTEST SOB I ever had to chase! Quick hands too! He took all my ammo from me before he got away.

You're confusing the issue / situation and what I said. The video shows what happens when you don't know the answer or you won't like what the answer will be. He got beat up. Is getting beat up the answer? I really don't think that's what you're saying right?

Let's talk real practical terms here. If you can come out relatively victorious without killing anyone or being killed yourself, then by all means, stand your ground. If you have the means to kill one or two of the opposing parties and have the time and resources to tie yourself up in the judicial system, then by all means, stand your ground.

Don't you believe in the adage of picking your battles or are you just venting your frustration? Faced with a high probability of an unpleasant situation for myself, you bet I'm going to move to another car if I can. I don't wear a cape with an S on my chest.

Guess what happens quite often for the people who get up and move to another train car.....Yep the group of shitheads realize they have someone to torment (like jackals on a wounded gazelle, their prey meter gets pegged) and they follow the person into the other train car where the person gets jumped, beat up, and robbed. It has happened numerous times on the St. Louis area Metro Link. These shitheads are always looking for a confrontation and fight but only on their terms: many against one, surprise/blindside attacks, moving in and out at first to gauge the victim's response, etc).

Google "DART Green Line" then select images. You'll notice a "MLK" stop. MLK stop to Buckner, heading South East, would be my best guess where this happened. The opposite direction on the green line, North East is relatively safe. The key is which part of the line. It will tell you everything.

I've ridden DART for over ten years, years ago for work, in the daytime hours. These days just for pleasure, or I should say leisure. Sporting events, Music/concerts, and such. One example is American Airlines Center, DART has a stop right in front of it, downtown Dallas, the Dallas Zoo, West End, Mockingbird.....day time hours pretty safe, Fri/Sat night relatively safe. Late at night Sun-Thurs, well I'd be G17/19 with 2 spare magz minimally. When I used to have to ride it for work (We had a bulding downtown that I had to manage Layer 1-7), to avoid traffic (faster than sitting bumper to bumper), well it was day 3 or 4. Saw something I didn't like. I knew where the DART office was already since I had bought a pass to use it on the reg. Next day I leave early so I can go by there, spoke to a higher ranking LEO, don't remember his credentials, something akin to a Sheriff. Had to wait a minute to see him. I couldn't find CCW info on their site. Finally get in, talk to the man (probably still have his business card somewhere, he was the main LEO) and asked about CHL, etc. I was encouraged to definitely carry, he welcomed it, shook my hand, gave me his card, and I was told to report any suspicious activity, and that DART had cops at many stops. I mean the guy was all about it, and was happy to not only answer the question but encouraged me to carry, wording it in a diplomatic way.

Any time after that, if I had to go down there during rush hours, I'd ride the train. There was one time, African-American male, mid 20's, guy was going off, bitching loud, near screaming. Complaining about people with money, people that had cars, etc. After a few minutes of this, I stand up, ready. He then seemed to calm down and said "Well I guess everyone on here don't have a car neither or they wouldn't be riding the train." Wrong. Some of us ride it to skip traffic, traffic accidents, parking fees (downtown parking is a mofo), etc. That's what a modern train infrastructure is designed for. Anyway, we hit like 2 stops, door opens, I see an African-American woman DART cop, I motion over, she looks at me and gets on the train during the stop, I tell her he needs to go, he is shouting loudly and making the women extremely nervous... she looks around for verification and everyone is nodding their head, she grabs him and off they go.

Another time, late on a Saturday, I come out of a movie theater (my favorite theater in the metro), walk down the steps to the train station where I see like 6 officers. Something had just gone down but perps were gone. I ask one of the officers what is going on, and do I need to worry about anything as i'm about to get on a train, white male cop lips off at me and tells me to mind my own business. Another officer, a good guy, walks over and says some shit just went down. I ask what, as I use the train regularly, etc. He said something to the effect of "Young African American Males" and keeps a tight lip. I nodded that I understood, thanks for talking to me, and that I'm armed and will be on high alert until my stop. He just smiled.

Another time I was on it, at night, again riding home from my an outage downtown that I had to fix, late on a week night. Two African American Males were gaming me, sizing me up. I had a backpack with my laptop in it, and which I kept more spare magazines. These two clowns had that look like they were watching every move I made, they'd glance at each other then look back at me. They were ready to give it a shot, gaming me, liking their odds. I stood up, put one strap of the backpack around my left shoulder to guard my shit. I'm 6 foot +, and in shape. As I stood up they had this look on their faces like well he is a big fucker. Then I reached under my polo and had my hand on the handle ready for a presentation. I smiled real big at both of them then winked. This was all silent, not a sound between us. I just remember when I winked and said silently with my body movements their faces dropped like their dad just busted them. They were casing me but I "made" them. I was ready and they knew it. We hit the next stop and they both got off the train as quick as them doors opened.

So as a long time user of DART, seen a few things, but nothing close to the beatings in that video. When I was younger I'd ride it so I could go drink downtown with friends. A couple of dollars round trip is way cheaper than $80-90 for a taxi there and back. I always thought it was perfect for having drinks, get everyone off the damn road. Get to your stop, and a very cheap taxi ride home, or walk. I saw enough that I never get on it without a G19/17, and two spare G17 magazines, and I won't have drinks downtown no more because I can't drink cocktails and carry, could lose my license for that, or end up in jail myself. But at the same time I'll still use it when I feel like it. A couple of places I like to go the train is super convenient and I like riding the train, I enjoy it. I used to play shows (music business) and flew all over the US. All my gigs in NYC, I developed a love for the trains riding the subways there, using them to get all over the burroughs. I like the DART and no thugs are gonna scare me off using public transit. I've told the heathens a few times to stfu and pipe down. I've heard other people do the same thing to rowdy teens. Trouble like this, it's always black teenagers as I've seen no one else act thuggish on the trains. There are some real nice low income, and high income that use the trains. Lots of blue and white collar folks. Trains run through expensive areas and the hood. I've met a lot of nice folks on there. Most people use it for work transport. Lots of elderly too, either low income or too old to drive. We can't all bitch out and be scurred of some thugs. But if it is the green line, Fair Park is the last exit I will use. MLK to Buckner, fuck that. But that area is no different than if driving a car. I'm not driving a car through there late at night either. Bad areas exist in every major city. Dallas is no different. Fuck 'em, bring it. I'm always ready. I like the train.

There is a movie I really like even though I'm not real fond of the Director who made it, his politics. 25th Hour. Barry Pepper is in it and plays a stock trader on Wall Street. Phillip Seymour Hoffman is his friend in the film, and Hoffman is a teacher at some private/prep school and a trust fund baby. They're up in Barry's expensive apartment. IIRC it was the first film to show footage of the disaster zone of the World Trade post 9/11. Had bulldozers and construction workers working at night with lights on. They are staring down at the mess and pondering the horror when Hoffman says "Ever think about moving?" Barry responds "As much good money as I paid for this place? Fuck em, Bin Laden can fly another plane down here I ain't going no where". Always stuck with me that quote. Yeah a fiction film, but I love that quote. An American saying fuck you, I'm not scared, I'm not changing and I'm not going anywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Not to absolve the mob but, in terms of inner city survival, never ask a question to which you don't know what the answer will be or you won't like what the answer will be.

"Hey, can you stop smoking marijuana?"

Didn't he have the ability to move to a different car on the train?

Therein lies the problem.

For far too long, decent people have been "moving to a different car". Some people are getting a little sick of this bullshit. I used to patrol the East Side of Chicago, South Shore neighborhood, South Chicago, Stony Island Park... The neighborhoods where my Mom and Dad were raised. The neighborhood where my Grandfather had a corner butcher shop. The neighborhood where, even being in the middle of a city, you could still keep your doors unlocked, and not worry.

Now? A fucking war zone. I snow-plow in the winter, we have the account for the church where my Mother, Grandmother and Great Grandmother went. I don't go without a spare magazine.

Why? Because people "moved to a different car". I can tell you about 30 neighborhoods & suburbs just like that. And that's just here, in Chicago. What about other Cities? How many more there?

(normal)People are generally non-confrontational, and don't want a disturbance, an argument more or less a physical interaction with another human. So what's the best course of action? "Move to a different car". Until you have no where else to move to... Then there's this fight or flight thing. Hopefully one knows how to fight.



The last dickhead we had in the Oval Office did nothing but foster this lawless attitude amongst the savages. More people need to start waking up and standing up to this bullshit! YES!!! By all means read and watch ANYTHING by Colin Flaherty. Start connecting the dots that the liberal media glosses over; ie. the same thing happens all over the country, and the news (for some odd reason) puts out a vague description of the offenders... but omits race. It's getting pretty bad when someone gets the shit beat out of them for asking a question as simple as "Can you act like a normal member of society?" in public, and no one does a damn thing but film it on a stupid cell phone.


Again, more and more decent people need to start standing up to this savagery from a certain segment of society, and stop "moving to a different car". It does nothing but embolden them when you move. When it happens to be the next Bernie Geotz / Paul Kersey, so be it... I'm in for $50 for his on-line fund. If it happens here, and I ever cross paths with him, I swear that he was the FASTEST SOB I ever had to chase! Quick hands too! He took all my ammo from me before he got away.

You're confusing the issue / situation and what I said. The video shows what happens when you don't know the answer or you won't like what the answer will be. He got beat up. Is getting beat up the answer? I really don't think that's what you're saying right?

Let's talk real practical terms here. If you can come out relatively victorious without killing anyone or being killed yourself, then by all means, stand your ground. If you have the means to kill one or two of the opposing parties and have the time and resources to tie yourself up in the judicial system, then by all means, stand your ground.

Don't you believe in the adage of picking your battles or are you just venting your frustration? Faced with a high probability of an unpleasant situation for myself, you bet I'm going to move to another car if I can. I don't wear a cape with an S on my chest.

Guess what happens quite often for the people who get up and move to another train car.....Yep the group of shitheads realize they have someone to torment (like jackals on a wounded gazelle, their prey meter gets pegged) and they follow the person into the other train car where the person gets jumped, beat up, and robbed. It has happened numerous times on the St. Louis area Metro Link. These shitheads are always looking for a confrontation and fight but only on their terms: many against one, surprise/blindside attacks, moving in and out at first to gauge the victim's response, etc).

Yeah, how well did getting off the train work out for him? Sometimes you don't have to have an S on your chest. But, sometimes you have to realize pandering to this crowd doesn't work, and at that time it is time to get it on.

I believe no one here is misunderstanding the issue. The issue becomes one that I have seen many times in cops who are so worried about liability of use of force, that they get themselves hurt or killed because they are more scared of what is going to happen if they survive a use of force than they are getting hurt/killed. If this is the mindset that the "confused" have, they probably shouldn't ride the train. Anyone with common sense understands this. But, the only way to defend it is to say everyone else is s vigilante or "go ahead and shoot them for doing nuffin".

Until good people start standing up for themselves, this type of moral decay is going to continue.

quote:

Didn't he have the ability to move to a different car on the train?

Why should he have to???

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Until good people start standing up for themselves, this type of moral decay is going to continue.

I think a couple other things need to fall into place for good people to take action on a regular basis:

1. Fed up witnesses become forgetful
2. Investigating LE ask very few questions

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Until good people start standing up for themselves, this type of moral decay is going to continue.

I think a couple other things need to fall into place for good people to take action on a regular basis:

1. Fed up witnesses become forgetful
2. Investigating LE ask very few questions

I guess it depends on where you live. Around here, witnesses give good statements, LE asks a lot of questions, and are thorough. And there would never be any charges against the person that stands up for themselves. And I have seen some really sketchy examples but were never charged.

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:

Dude should have kept his trap shut. Policing such things isn't his job, role, or otherwise.

And if it's me, and I don't want to smell that shit, and I don't want to breathe that shit, and I happen to like the seat where I'm lawfully riding... it's not about "policing." It's about my rights not being subordinate to theirs.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Fucking savages. Can't call them animals because most animals are above that kind of behavior.
Too bad that the victim was not packing heat.

I think they would have killed him with it. There's no way to know for sure of course, but 7 on 1 is not good odds. He may have gotten off a shot or two before the rest of them overwhelmed him and took it from him.

My thoughts are pure speculation based on what I believe to be the cowardly nature of mobs. I think what would more likely happen is the fortunate four would flee when they see the first three of their number go down with a shot or two center of mass. Again, there is no predicting what people will do. It is possible that they would not be impressed by the sound of several shots contained indoors and the specter of the bloody corpses of their former buddies slumping to the ground might not drive a spike of fear into their hearts. I know I'd run screaming, "Feets, don't fail me now!".

quote:

Originally posted by P-220:
It reminds me of a Steven Segal movie (no flames please).

He was clearly outnumbered and had a handgun. One of the BG's said, c'mon, he can't kill all of us. SG shot that guy and said, "you're right, but I'll get an "A" for effort".

I have only once been put in a situation where I could have easily been killed. I had lost my mind when confronting a group of thugs. I was beyond the point of no return and challenged the group when they threatened to throw me off the skywalk. Like I said, I was Mel Gibson crazy and did not give a fuck. I was ready to go, or die trying. The group backed off when one f them said, "this motherfucker is crazy".

Was it smart? Hell no. But I was in my 30's and I had been pushed to my limit.

Wow. The savages came to their senses long enough to survive.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Fucking savages. Can't call them animals because most animals are above that kind of behavior.
Too bad that the victim was not packing heat.

I think they would have killed him with it. There's no way to know for sure of course, but 7 on 1 is not good odds. He may have gotten off a shot or two before the rest of them overwhelmed him and took it from him.

My thoughts are pure speculation based on what I believe to be the cowardly nature of mobs. I think what would more likely happen is the fortunate four would flee when they see the first three of their number go down with a shot or two center of mass. Again, there is no predicting what people will do. It is possible that they would not be impressed by the sound of several shots contained indoors and the specter of the bloody corpses of their former buddies slumping to the ground might not drive a spike of fear into their hearts. I know I'd run screaming, "Feets, don't fail me now!".

Fire one shot, and they'll flee like cockroaches. It doesn't even matter if you hit one of them or not. They are absolute cowards. I've been in situations like this - if there's even the most remote chance that one of them might get hurt, they run like the worthless POS they are.

There's a huge tactical issue here even, and especially if, the victim had a gun on him. Until they attack him, he has no legal justification pull it. If he did, he'd have serious problems of another kind, even in TX. And if he waits until they attack him, it's too late. In very close quarters with a multiple on one scenario, he's not likely to be able to get to the point where he can get a shot on target before they overpower him and take it way (with the bad consequences that brings.)

Getting out of Dodge is the only workable solution here.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Until they attack him, he has no legal justification

Not sure that you are correct about this, although it probably depends on the jurisdiction. If threatened by clearly superior numbers, would the victim be able to state, truthfully, that he was in fear for his life or his safety?

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
There's a huge tactical issue here even, and especially if, the victim had a gun on him. Until they attack him, he has no legal justification pull it. If he did, he'd have serious problems of another kind, even in TX. And if he waits until they attack him, it's too late. In very close quarters with a multiple on one scenario, he's not likely to be able to get to the point where he can get a shot on target before they overpower him and take it way (with the bad consequences that brings.)

I am wondering why people aren't getting this: These types are utter COWARDS. Pull that smoke wagon and fire, and they will all scramble. They're not going to suppose, "Yeah - maybe I might get hit, but I'm willing to risk it to take that gun away from him so that my buddies will win this confrontation." No - as soon as they sense danger, they're gone. I've experienced this many times.

quote:

Until they attack him, he has no legal justification

Not really. imminence is one factor in the use of deadly force.

Andy Branca's course teaches these areas of concern..

quote:

Branca’s presentation of the law of self-defense revolves around five fundamental principles, which are repeated throughout the seminar:

Innocence
Imminence
Proportionality
Avoidance
Reasonableness


An attacker must have the ability to inflict death or grave bodily harm (e.g., a weapon, size or strength, special skills), as well as the opportunity (e.g., proximity to you), and must put you in jeopardy as a reasonable threat (e.g., the bank security guard is armed and close to you but does not represent a threat).

Andrew's book and seminars are well worth the time and money.

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:

Andrew's book and seminars are well worth the time and money.

The question is how to prepare to go from theory to action. When confronted with an escalating situation, how do you know when the threshold has been crossed? How do I avoid getting wrapped up in analyzing the situation in my mind and not transitioning to action soon enough?

Remember, it;s your word against their's.

Assume there were verbal taunts but they never laid a hand on him. He pulls a gun, aims but doesn't shoot. The miscreants scram, but call the cops on him (seems unlikely but could happen.) Cops find him. The one of him says he was threatened and acted accordingly. The seven of them say that they "didn't do nuffin'" and the guy just pulled a gun. The one thing that they all agree on is that a gun came out. This is in a liberal, minority majority city. Do you think the DA wouldn't be inclined to press assault, brandishing, or whatever charges might fit the situation? What happens at trial?

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Until they attack him, he has no legal justification

Not sure that you are correct about this, although it probably depends on the jurisdiction. If threatened by clearly superior numbers, would the victim be able to state, truthfully, that he was in fear for his life or his safety?

If the assault hadn't started yet, see my post above.

If the assault has started, you're now in hand to hand range with multiple assailants and you have to draw, get the gun pointing in something of the right direction (aim would be overstating it), and fire, all while they already have their hands on you. This is a lwo probability of success endeavor.

For a gun to be really useful, you need some distance between yourself and the attacker, and at least minimal time to draw and fire. In this situation, you likely wouldn't have that.

quote:

Originally posted by synthplayer:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
There's a huge tactical issue here even, and especially if, the victim had a gun on him. Until they attack him, he has no legal justification pull it. If he did, he'd have serious problems of another kind, even in TX. And if he waits until they attack him, it's too late. In very close quarters with a multiple on one scenario, he's not likely to be able to get to the point where he can get a shot on target before they overpower him and take it way (with the bad consequences that brings.)

I am wondering why people aren't getting this: These types are utter COWARDS. Pull that smoke wagon and fire, and they will all scramble. They're not going to suppose, "Yeah - maybe I might get hit, but I'm willing to risk it to take that gun away from him so that my buddies will win this confrontation." No - as soon as they sense danger, they're gone. I've experienced this many times.