SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  The Lounge    Court: Probe found over 300 'predator priests' in 6 dioceses
Page 1 2 3 4 5 

Moderators: Chris Orndorff, LDD
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Court: Probe found over 300 'predator priests' in 6 dioceses Login/Join 
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by chellim1:
I don't think it's quite so easy.


That’s a common argument, but the plain fact is that not all Christians* believe that, and belief is what governs conduct. If one believes he has an unlimited supply of “Get out of jail free” cards to avoid all forms of punishment, spiritual or temporal, then it doesn’t matter what the reality is. And even if someone accepts the need for “true” repentance, it’s easy enough to rationalize that away in the short term: “I’ll stop doing it and truly repent when I no longer have these urges, then everything will be okay.” A common accusation against atheists and other unbelievers is that they can’t possibly act morally without a belief in divine retribution for their immoral acts. Although ridiculous on its face, if it were true, no one who believed in ultimate forgiveness of sin could act morally for the same reason: no intimidation, no morality.

* (And yes, I’m familiar with the “no true Christian” variant of the “no true Scotsman” argument, but again it’s belief, not reality that governs the actions of such people. History is full of examples of people who committed horrible atrocities while being firmly convinced that no truer Christians than they could possibly exist.)




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 38670 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by TMats:
quote:
I know, I know - priest / pastor so and so REALLY needs that Bently and Gulfstream to wooo donors for more money...

The Catholic Church has plenty of demons to exorcise, but I don’t think you’re going to find any parish priests riding in a Bentley or jetting around the world. I hope it’s not different where you are.

Yeah that was aimed more at the Baptist Church and other denominations - but still the Pope and his boyz over in Rome aren't hurting for any creature comforts... Sure, they don't 'own' any of it, but they enjoy it...
 
Posts: 40020 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I don't understand the " let them get married"
theory .

Are there adults that want to be 9 y.o. boys to attract priests?





Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency.



Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first
 
Posts: 47127 | Location: Henry County , Il | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bendable:
I don't understand the " let them get married"
theory .

The “theory” is that although there are obvious exceptions, men with normal sexual desires are unlikely to enter the Catholic priesthood because they would have no legitimate way of satisfying those desires as they would if they were married. This is even more true today than in the past when it was easier to convince men that celibacy was morally superior to having a normal sex life.

The consequence is that pedophiles are more likely to become priests and therefore they are concentrated within that group. And not only are the vulnerable victims more likely to encounter pedophiles as a consequence, people like that tend to protect each other. If there is a large percentage of pedophiles among one's peers and within the hierarchy, there is much less chance of any effective action being taken against abuse.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 38670 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bendable:
I don't understand the " let them get married"
theory .

Are there adults that want to be 9 y.o. boys to attract priests?
It won't fix those priests in the Catholic Church now, but it would change the future population of the Priesthood.

So instead of having sexually repressed men, some of whom are rapists / pedos / molesters, you'd attract devout, well adjusted priests who could marry (like nearly every other religion).

Over time you would attract men who were devout but unwilling to give up marriage / children to be a priest.

Think about a fix implemented now that really wont bear fruit for 20-50 years, until all the bad apples die off and the new generation starts to take over.
 
Posts: 40020 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Greymann
posted Hide Post
Outrageous crimes deserve outrageous punishment.
 
Posts: 301 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: March 21, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Unhyphenated American
Picture of Floyd D. Barber
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bendable:
I don't understand the " let them get married"
theory .

Are there adults that want to be 9 y.o. boys to attract priests?


I don't understand that one either. Priests could be having sex with grown women or men instead of children.


__________________________________________________________________________________
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
Richard M Nixon

It's nice to be important, it's more important to be nice.
Billy Joe Shaver


NRA Life Member

 
Posts: 6781 | Location: Between the Moon and New York City. | Registered: November 27, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
thanks sigfreund ,

I am no sex expert by any means,
but from what we see in the news, it would be my guess that these predator monsters
saw
a 50% better chance to feed on kids by joining the church,

the thought of having sex with mature adults ( normal or not)
never entered in too their preferred way of life, choice.

Kinda like an avid golfer joining the sky diving club, no one in the sky diving club is going to share the rush of getting seven birdies in a row,
on the front nine





Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency.



Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first
 
Posts: 47127 | Location: Henry County , Il | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Legalize the Constitution
Picture of TMats
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by GA Gator:
From my personal experience fallibility and forgiveness of sin has contributed to the perpetuation of this criminal behavior.


This is one of the most obvious truisms about Christianity (and to a lesser degree, Islam). History reports that Constantine, the first Roman emperor to become a Christian, delayed his baptism until he was on his deathbed because being baptized washed away all his previous sins.

As I’ve mentioned in the threads about FBI outrages, the science fiction editor John Campbell observed that it’s not power that corrupts, but immunity. The FBI has long had immunity for its corruption, and it’s the same with abuse by clergy (and not just Catholic priests). They have long been immune to any consequences for their acts, and not only secular consequences. It’s obvious that anyone who claims to be a Christian could do such things only if he believed at least one of three things, that there is no such thing as an afterlife at all; that (as many people believe) there is an afterlife, but there’s no punishment there for acts here; or—as is probably the most likely explanation—that forgiveness of sin is just that: “Bless me, Father, for I have sinned. I had an orgasm and now I feel bad about it,” and although there may be some nominal “penance” attached to it, the important part is that now it’s all okay. And it will be okay after the next incident as well.

There are a few responses like this. If you truly believe in the Sacrament of Confession, then you do NOT believe that it’s a ”get out of jail free card.” This was drilled into us as kids in Catholic school. We were taught that our sins were forgiven IF we were truly sorry for them and resolved to “Go forth and sin no more.”

If a 7 YO boy believed that, then I expect a priest to believe it as well. Any priest who abuses children, confesses that abomination to another priest, then goes out and abuses more children is NOT forgiven of those sins where it counts—by the God he professes to believe in. Doesn’t matter if the other priest gives the Sign of the Cross and tells him to say a Rosary.


__________________________________________________________
Carpe mañana
 
Posts: 7912 | Location: Wyoming | Registered: January 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
posted Hide Post
Pope Francis should resign.

In today’s episode of “The Michael Knowles Show,” Michael breaks down the complicated scandal that has rocked the Catholic church.

“We do know that Francis empowered McCarrick, he let him go to China as a representative of the Vatican. He let him go all over, and live in seminaries, and basically have free reign, the exact opposite of what Pope Benedict allowed him to do,” Knowles said. “The issue here is that Pope Francis won’t respond. At the end of this testimony from Cardinal Vigano, he says the Pope should resign, the Pope knew, the Pope should resign.

And this is not some power play here. The cardinal who wrote this is retired. He doesn’t have anything personally to gain from this.”

Video and transcript below:






I’m going to break this down for you – this Vatican, Catholic church scandal, and we’ll see. There are going to be new things that come out, but I want to give you the basic outlook because the mainstream media are lying about this.

First of all, there are very few things that are unprecedented in the Catholic church. You know, there have been multiple empires, popes being kidnapped by tyrants, and invaders, and this and that. This is unprecedented.

A top Vatican official is accusing the Pope of covering up for an abusive priest and he’s calling on that pope to resign. This is utterly unprecedented, and this poses serious questions. Not only for Francis’ pontificate, but for the state of western Christianity, and western civilization. The significance of this letter from the Vatican’s former representative to Washington, an eleven-page letter outlining all of this. It cannot be overstated how significant this is.

The cardinal to write this testimony is the former Nuncio to Washington, the Vatican’s former representative to the United States.

For some context, the United States and Washington basically fund the Catholic church, so this is the Vatican’s rep to the United States. That’s what the word “nuncio” means.

Some people are pronouncing it Nunzio. Nunzio is the name of my Italian uncle who lives in the Bronx.

Nuncio is the representative to the United States.

His name is Carlo Maria Viganò. In his testimony, he outlines abuse and he names names. Specifically, we saw a guy named Cardinal McCarrick, who stepped down. He was the first guy to step down from the college of cardinals in almost a hundred years. He stepped down just a couple of weeks ago, amid allegations of abusing not only minors, but a lot of seminarians, and a lot of priests. I’ve talked to priest friends about this. I talked to sources about this. They say this was widely known, not that he was abusing kids, but that he was abusing seminarians and priests and it was allowed to persist by Bishops who were covering it up, including his successors, including his pals in the Catholic clergy. Including Cardinal Wuerl by the way.

So, this is from his testimony, which outlines all of the abuse.

Quote: “Cardinal Wuerl, well aware of the continuous abuses committed by Cardinal McCarrick and the sanctions imposed on him by Pope Benedict, transgressing the Pope’s order, also allowed him to reside at a seminary in Washington, D.C. In doing so, he put other seminarians at risk.”

So, one thing that’s being really misrepresented here in the mainstream media, I think the Washington Post did this, is they said according to this testimony, both Pope Benedict, and Pope Francis, both of them knew about the abuse of Cardinal McCarrick and that’s technically true. What is left out here, the lie of omission, is that Pope Benedict punished Cardinal McCarrick. He sent this bad abusive cardinal who abused a lot of priests and some minors, he sent him into seclusion.

Pope Benedict defrocked a number of abusive priests, took them out of the clergy, and he said McCarrick has to not appear in public. He can’t live in the seminaries. He needs to be punished while these things are being investigated.

When Pope Francis came to power, he reinstated McCarrick. He gave him all of his old privileges back and the cardinal who replaced him allowed him to live at the seminaries where he had been abusing priests before. This is high corruption. Rank corruption. This was reported directly to Francis.

The author of this testimony is saying: “I spoke to Francis directly. I know that Francis knows about this. I told it to him with my own lips.”

So, one example is this guy, Vigano, was speaking to Francis and Pope Francis apparently asked him “What do you know about Cardinal McCarrick?”

Vigano said: “There is a dossier this thick on McCarrick outlining his abuse of priests and seminarians.”

Again, not little boys, but of other people in the clergy. This big, and you should know about that. And when he left, he later found out, according to this testimony, he knew McCarrick, has spoken previously to McCarrick, and perhaps was just trying to suss out what Vigano thought of McCarrick, in order to figure out who to promote and who to demote. We do know that Francis empowered McCarrick, he let him go to China as a representative of the Vatican. He let him go all over, and live in seminaries, and basically have free reign, the exact opposite of what Pope Benedict allowed him to do.

The issue here is that Pope Francis won’t respond. At the end of this testimony from Cardinal Vigano, he says the Pope should resign, the pope knew, the pope should resign.

And this is not some power play here. The cardinal who wrote this is retired. He doesn’t have anything personally to gain from this.

https://www.dailywire.com/news...pope-knew-daily-wire


"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the law abiding that their rights depend not on their own conduct but, on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless."
- Lysander Spooner

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 14909 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
posted Hide Post
With call for pope to resign, divisions within the Catholic Church explode into view

DUBLIN — Pope Francis has long faced criticism from traditionalists — a group that includes academics as well as cardinals — who say the church is too willingly following the whims of the anything-goes modern age.

Much of the dissent has remained within the Vatican walls, as Francis’s opponents worked to stonewall reforms. A few high-ranking church leaders have questioned him publicly about his teachings. But the simmering opposition has suddenly exploded across the Catholic world, with a former Vatican ambassador accusing the pope of covering up sexual abuse — and demanding that Francis step down.

The accusations came in a 7,000-word letter written by Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò that could be viewed as an act of courage or unprecedented defiance. Either way, it sheds light on the opposition movement, and particularly its insistence that homosexuality within the church — and Francis’s inability to keep it at bay — is to blame for the sexual abuse crisis.

The document alleges that Francis, as well as predecessor Pope Benedict XVI, had known for years about abuse allegations against Theodore McCarrick, who last month became the first cardinal in nearly a century to resign. Francis, asked about the accusations on Sunday, did not directly respond to them, saying that the document “speaks for itself.”

Pope Francis, flanked by Vatican spokesman Greg Burke, listens to a journalist's question aboard a flight to Rome on Sunday. (Gregorio Borgias/AP)

The author, Viganò, a 77-year-old who is two years into retirement, is described by acquaintances as shy and quiet, but he has a history of advocating for right-wing causes. During the pope’s U.S. visit in 2015, he orchestrated a meeting between Francis and a conservative county clerk who defined a federal order to issue same-sex marriage licenses. In Italy this year, he spoke briefly at a gathering of dissenters that included Cardinal Raymond Burke, perhaps the most prominent anti-Francis figure.

“All of the traditionalist outlets have given Viganò’s letter a great echo, because that was the voice that they were waiting for,” said Roberto de Mattei, president of the conservative Lepanto Foundation and a critic of Francis. “At last a bishop has spoken. This explains the consensus from the world of critics. Viganò was not a leader [of the group]. But he joined critical voices that already existed.”

Francis has used more inclusive messages about gays and divorced Catholics at a time when the religion is losing its hold across the Western world. But some conservatives feel that Francis — who has made no concrete changes to church teaching on homosexuality or the role of women in the church — risks undoing the credibility of a religion that is based on immutable ideas and principles.

In the letter, Viganò goes into detail about years of failures to act within the Vatican bureaucracy, and he describes “dismay and sadness over the enormity of what is happening.” He mentions “homosexual networks” within the church and quotes an academic who cites such networks as a core reason for clergy abuse.

https://www.washingtonpost.com...m_term=.c6ada34f9264


"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the law abiding that their rights depend not on their own conduct but, on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless."
- Lysander Spooner

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 14909 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Staring back
from the abyss
Picture of Gustofer
posted Hide Post
Well, his heresy wasn't enough to bring him down, perhaps this'll do it.


________________________________________________________

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy." Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 15269 | Location: Montana | Registered: November 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
My best friend was a devout Catholic. Known hin since I was 21 and he was 19. He died 4 yrs ago at 63. I’m not Catholic, but was always glad he had the church. It seemed to give him strength in his job. He was a Houston cop for 27 yrs.

A few years before he retired, he suddenly quit the church. I was shocked given his devotion to it. Says that he was at a school event for one of his kids and observed a priest yelling at the kids and generally being an ass. Said he’d finally had enough of arrogant asshole priests and and told him off. Pulled his kid outta the cath school.

Later he vented. The church is an “ongoing criminal enterprise”. They are under a directive from the top to protect the church at all costs. Never reveal info, don’t cooperate with the cops and protect priests.

Innocent parishinors are treated with contempt and have no standing, he said. The church exists to suck money from and exploit people.

As an ongoing criminal enterprise, they should lose their tax exemption, have their property seized and arrest warrents should be issued for all US Bishops and other “executives” because they have all have covered up abuse as part of church policy! Issue an arrest warrent for the Pope too and arrest him if he ever comes to the US he said. The coverup goes all the way to the top he explained.

He was Sergent/detective for over 15 years, in Homocide and Sex Crimes. He said that based on what he had investigated at work he could no longer associate himself with the Cath Church institution. The incident with the rude priest was the “ trigger” that finally set him off.

He comfortably settled into the Lutheran church. His bitterness toward the Cath Church remained. He knew of course that no real action could be taken for past Church abuses.

The actions he described were “What I would do if I were king of the world” he said.

My friend was a good and moral man. I don’t think he was wrong.
 
Posts: 1019 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: April 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
posted Hide Post
quote:
He comfortably settled into the Lutheran church. His bitterness toward the Cath Church remained.

“we are a step away from schism.”

The Lutheran church came out of a previous schism. Martin Luther never intended to split from the Catholic Church, he was only seeking reform, but the Church was slow to act. I fear we are close to something similar:

This is an intensification of a long-running conservative opposition to Francis

Conservative opposition to Pope Francis has been brewing for years.

Since the beginning, Francis’s papacy has galvanized conservative ranks within the Vatican hierarchy. Francis’s perceived laxity when it comes to LGBTQ people, as well as divorced-and-remarried couples, has worried conservatives, who have often characterized him as a dictatorial reformer running roughshod over tradition in order to move the church unilaterally toward progressivism.

One of those conservatives was Viganò. Back in 2016, Viganò was dismissed from his post as papal nuncio (essentially an ambassador) after having brokered a meeting, without Francis’s knowledge or consent, between the pope and Kim Davis, the Kentucky county clerk lionized for refusing to sign marriage certificates for same-sex couples.

While Viganò’s allegations about Francis’s knowledge of McCarrick’s harassment of other adults may indeed be accurate (Francis has refused to confirm or deny his claims), his letter is nevertheless rooted in the wider language of the Vatican culture wars. He not only accuses Francis of knowing about McCarrick, but also indicts more broadly “the homosexual networks present in the church,” which, he says, “must be eradicated.”

Viganò is far from the only Vatican insider to speak critically of Francis. Several of his longtime critics, such as Cardinal Raymond Burke, have raised their concerns about Francis through other open letters. For instance, a group of four senior cardinals signed the dubia, a list of objections to Francis’s 2016 apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia, which opened the door to granting divorced-and-remarried couples communion. In a statement in response to Viganò’s letter, Burke wrote, “The corruption and filth which have entered into the life of the Church must be purified at their roots,” and then called for a full investigation of the allegations.

https://www.vox.com/2018/8/28/...vigano-letter-schism


"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the law abiding that their rights depend not on their own conduct but, on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless."
- Lysander Spooner

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 14909 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Staring back
from the abyss
Picture of Gustofer
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by chellim1:
“The corruption and filth which have entered into the life of the Church must be purified at their roots,”

Good to see they've stopped pulling their punches.


________________________________________________________

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy." Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 15269 | Location: Montana | Registered: November 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Burke wrote, “The corruption and filth which have entered into the life of the Church must be purified at their roots,” and then called for a full investigation of the allegations.

He's one of the good guys in this battle.
As the former archbishop of the Archdiocese of St. Louis, I have had the priviledge of meeting him.


"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the law abiding that their rights depend not on their own conduct but, on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless."
- Lysander Spooner

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 14909 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of reloader-1
posted Hide Post
I’m a Catholic, and always will be.

My perspective on this is the Catholic Church has always had assholes, thieves, rapists, murderers, pedophiles, and God knows what else (pun intended), and it always will.

It’s imperfect because it is in the care of humans, and humans suck. God made each and every one of us and none of us are perfect.

My preferred solution to this is the forced resignation of everyone above “barely out of the seminary” status, and start there. Keep a bishop or two for apostolic succession, if the new Pope is 32 years old out of necessity so be it.
 
Posts: 1601 | Location: NWA | Registered: October 26, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post

Let us prey





Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency.



Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first
 
Posts: 47127 | Location: Henry County , Il | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by reloader-1:
I’m a Catholic, and always will be.

My perspective on this is the Catholic Church has always had assholes, thieves, rapists, murderers, pedophiles, and God knows what else (pun intended), and it always will.

It’s imperfect because it is in the care of humans, and humans suck. God made each and every one of us and none of us are perfect.

Same here, my friend.
And you are right: any institution run by humans is going to be far less than perfect.

People are free to leave, and since Vatican II many have. But the Church will reform and it will survive. I'm thankful that there are still people like Viganò and Raymond Burke willing to stand and fight.


"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the law abiding that their rights depend not on their own conduct but, on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless."
- Lysander Spooner

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 14909 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Chip away the stone
Picture of rusbro
posted Hide Post
The Vatican’s own media operation just released this photo of Pope Francis meeting two US cardinals to discuss the sexual abuse crisis. Not the best choice for a PR image...

 
Posts: 10653 | Registered: August 22, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4 5  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  The Lounge    Court: Probe found over 300 'predator priests' in 6 dioceses

© SIGforum 2018