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Doin' what I can
with what I got
Picture of Rob Decker
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quote:
Originally posted by Strambo:

No age or gender scales? Good! Combat (and less dramatically, the soldiers MOS requirements) don’t recognize either.



This.

I'm sure there are senior officers in their late forties and early fifties who can run circles around me. I've met some of them, in fact, and I'm moderately in awe that a man twenty years my senior can run me into the ground. That's the result of raw physical talent and genetic disposition, honed by decades of discipline and training. It's amazing.

It's also not the norm. The current APFT, on paper, says it is, because starting with my age group, it gets progressively easier to put down a maximum score. I won't take away anything from the forty-something Colonel who's running his max score time - it's still not easy - but it's also a fair clip slower than the max score time for someone not yet thirty. An accurate reflection of fitness with age? Perhaps. But not an accurate reflection of who is more physically capable.

Part of the current gender squabbles in the military involves the fact that a female the same age as me can run slower, and do fewer pushups, and get a higher score than me.

None of which is an indictment of women or people older than 30 serving in the military - it is, however, an indictment of the current test, which is (by deliberate design) a set of arbitrary standards designed to measure fitness in the abstract. As other posters have stated - and I have witnessed from personal experience - those arbitrary standards have little to do with reality.

Some of the best "PT studs" I've ever seen are 150lb males under 5'9" tall. They're superb at the calisthenics and the two mile run. Put them in fifty pounds of combat gear with a fifty pound ruck, however...not so good. I've never had to do a situp on a patrol. I HAVE had to hump my basic combat load.

I'm not a fitness professional so I won't discuss the merits of the current test, beyond he fact that I LIKE one standard for all genders and age groups. If nothing else, perhaps it will help drive some change in the military medical community and fitness circles to get Soldiers and Leaders exercising in ways that don't lead to joint replacement surgeries by 40 years of age.


----------------------------------------
Death smiles at us all. Be sure you smile back.
 
Posts: 5261 | Registered: May 11, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Something wild
is loose
Picture of Doc H.
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Or they could use the Air Force's test on stationary bikes. In case our enemies ever attack us on stationary bikes.



"And gentlemen in England now abed, shall think themselves accursed they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks that fought with us upon Saint Crispin's Day"
 
Posts: 2248 | Location: The Shire | Registered: October 22, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by AllenInWV:
I think (and this is from an aging SFC LOL) that while Big Army will have little issue with this, your typical NG unit is going to suffer trying to implement it. For example, my unit has no LMTVs (or any military vehicle for that matter). The Readiness NCO loads up his pickup with mats, water jug, etc. Sometimes we use the 15 pax van to ferry people to the track. And we're in a fairly urban area for WV.


We have armories like that as well. Those units won't be doing a full on ACFT at home. That is why I mentioned it will need to be a paradigm shift. It will be like going to a major training exercise, you transport everyone there and conduct the 1x year ACFT along with your other collective training.

This is happening, as the article states, there are 63 BNs testing it for refinement and one of them is a BN here in the OR National Guard.

The general consensus seems to be it is an easier test to pass and much harder to max. Well, whether it is easier to pass depends on which standard based on your MOS and if you actually have core strength or not. Wednesday, we did a familiarization in our unit with senior leadership and a few male IN types couldn't do 1 leg tuck. I didn't see major problems on the other events though.

To my knowledge nobody in the Army has ever maxed the test and gotten 600 points. Specifically the hand release push up. The trainers hadn't heard of anyone doing 70 of those.

Skinny runts maxing the current APFT was mentioned, that is the good thing about the ACFT, that won't happen anymore. To come close to maxing it, you need a decent deadlift, good power for the throw, anaerobic capacity for the sprint, drag, carry and solid upper body pushing, pulling, and core strength for the leg tucks and push ups. Then, after all those events, put down a decently fast 2 miles.

Yes, crossfit type workouts work well for ACFT prep, but again that is not needed, just intelligent workout programming.

When I was on active duty, I hated PT because it was largely a waste of time. The same calisthenics and running every day. I tried to skip it whenever I could and worked out on my own either way. Now, units will have to exercise smarter to prepare for the ACFT and the result will be fitter soldiers who get injured less.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 4169 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
It's not you,
it's me.
Picture of RAMIUS
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quote:
Originally posted by crue-dell:
I think the new standards would make a good warm up.


That’s what I was thinking...pretty easy. That test is actually less than what I do for a pre workout warm up.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Be unpredictable at times. Only boring, dull-witted people never stray from the path. - Para

Totus Tuus

 
Posts: 5513 | Location: Philadelphia, Pa | Registered: September 08, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Just saw a slide with updates regarding ACFT implementation in the National Guard.

Injury rates at the mobile training team courses less than 2%. Just a bullet point, so no other info or context provided.

This is big; each company is slated for 1x Master Fitness Trainer. MFT is a very good course and these folks will have the knowledge to pass down about how to train properly. Equipment NLT Sep 30, 2019 (we'll see, that is a lot of stuff to produce!)

Also as I suspected, the "knee tuck" is the most failed event...the event where the minimum is only 1-5 depending on MOS.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 4169 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm an old fool - most of my experience is in jungle warfare.

The weak link in any PT program is a person's ankles. You can be in fantastic shape by military standards but if that weak link isn't properly trained up......

V.
 
Posts: 122 | Location: Pacific NW | Registered: April 09, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc H.:
Or they could use the Air Force's test on stationary bikes. In case our enemies ever attack us on stationary bikes.



Unless things have changed in the past few years the chair force pt test was very similar to the APFT. The run was a mile and a half but they had less time, and if they fail it twice they got demoted
 
Posts: 2725 | Registered: December 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by AllenInWV:
I think (and this is from an aging SFC LOL) that while Big Army will have little issue with this, your typical NG unit is going to suffer trying to implement it. For example, my unit has no LMTVs (or any military vehicle for that matter). The Readiness NCO loads up his pickup with mats, water jug, etc. Sometimes we use the 15 pax van to ferry people to the track. And we're in a fairly urban area for WV. I do think it'll cause injuries (when we were trying out the deadlift, 'form' was all over the place) and I do think we'll see an adverse impact on manpower. Granted, after a while it'll level out. The kids I see working out in the armory nowadays are all into CrossFit or P90X or whatever. Very seldomly have I seen people working out JUST for the APFT. Me, I have shitty knees and under the current standards I just have to fog a mirror to pass. That and do the 10k bike ride. Big Grin


It's also my understanding, at least under the current standards, that not having an alternate on a permanent profile is NOT an automatic failure.

I sustained an LOD injury that royally screwed up my shoulder. I was told just that, that there is no alternate for pushups, so I couldn't get a permanent profile or I'd be pushed out.

End result was I worked through the pain for years, and now I have chronic pain, am VA-rated, and am in FAR worse condition than I was.

To rub a little salt in the wound, I was told by my command that what I had been told was blatantly false, and that with a permanent I would basically be given a 'go' on the event I could not perform, so that I could go to schools and the like. (This isn't fudging paperwork, I mean in conjunction with the permanent profile and my LOD paperwork).

Now, I don't know the circumstances or boxes that need to be checked for that to apply, but my command, and the other units/schools I've checked with have all agreed that it is NOT an automatic failure.

AFAIK that will continue to apply to this new test.


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The first 100 people to make it out alive...get to live.
 
Posts: 1277 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: April 16, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Ghost-1
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I see a whole lot of injuries coming out of this and a whole lot of bullshit right along with it as well.

I had always done the PU/SU/2 Mile run and yes it should have been updated like someone else said but when they tried it we ended up with the stupid ass PRT crap.

I don't care anymore as I don't have to do or deal with the stupid shit anymore thanks as I finally retired after 24 yrs so it's not my problem anymore. Big Grin


____________________________________________________________________________________________________
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.



 
Posts: 3235 | Location: USA | Registered: July 04, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Charmingly unsophisticated
Picture of AllenInWV
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quote:
Originally posted by xwesler:


It's also my understanding, at least under the current standards, that not having an alternate on a permanent profile is NOT an automatic failure.



That's correct. A profile (permanent or otherwise) that says "You can't do PU/SU for the APFT" does not cause you to fail automatically under the current standards. But that's not what we're being told in regards to the ACFT.

Time will tell I suppose. I'm with Ghost-1, it's not going to be my problem soon. LOL


_______________________________

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose."
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Posts: 15219 | Location: Cross Lanes, WV | Registered: February 05, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 229DAK
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Some sole-source contractor probably got rich selling the Army all this new, required equipment - weights, bars, medicine balls, kettle balls, etc.

Hey, why not go back to the "banana suits" for PT, too? Razz


_________________________________________________________________________
You MATTER. Unless you multiply yourself by the speed of light squared. Then you ENERGY.

The afternoon knows what the morning never suspected.
-- Robert Frost
 
Posts: 7133 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
fugitive from reality
Picture of SgtGold
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quote:
Originally posted by limblessbiff:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc H.:
Or they could use the Air Force's test on stationary bikes. In case our enemies ever attack us on stationary bikes.



Unless things have changed in the past few years the chair force pt test was very similar to the APFT. The run was a mile and a half but they had less time, and if they fail it twice they got demoted


Both the Army and the AF have alternative events if you have a run profile. The Army is single speed road bike, stationary bike, timed pass/fail walk, and swim events.


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Posts: 6118 | Location: Newyorkistan | Registered: March 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Official Space Nerd
Picture of Hound Dog
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Decker:

I'm sure there are senior officers in their late forties and early fifties who can run circles around me. I've met some of them, in fact, and I'm moderately in awe that a man twenty years my senior can run me into the ground. That's the result of raw physical talent and genetic disposition, honed by decades of discipline and training. It's amazing.


Yeah, I have met many such people. People in their 40s/50s who are physical fitness maniacs. It's impressive, and they get a LOT of advantages based on their fitness.

But, what kind of leaders are they? I ask people often how many pushups could Jimmy Doolittle do? How fast could Robin Olds do the 1.5 mile? Nobody CARES how fit great leaders were; they care how they led their people.

The Air Force, at least, had begun this Darwinian process about 10-14 yrs ago whereby the really super fit people will rise to the top, not necessarily the best leaders. So, we are now at the point where we have people in command that survived the hunger games because they are naturally fit. Some are really great leaders, but I think the military should focus MORE on how effective somebody is at their job and less so on how many pushups they can do. . .

Then, all the gym rats were agitating to get PT scores put on annual performance reports. Of course they were - they consistently scored high marks so it would be to their benefit. I told these people that we should then list our college level/GPAs and ASVAB scores (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery - essentially, a test to measure aptitude/intelligence in certain key areas). I asked, which was more important (especially in technical fields) - physical fitness or intelligence? They bristled at the suggestion; saying that it wouldn't be 'right' to do so. They couldn't explain why fitness should be there and intelligence/aptitude should not.

Don't get me wrong - fitness is important. It's just not the MOST important thing.


And, in full disclosure, I ALWAYS struggled with my fitness. I admire super fit people, but I admire leadership abilities and intelligence more.



No arsenal is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women.
Ronald Reagan
 
Posts: 20340 | Location: Hobbiton, The Shire, Middle Earth | Registered: September 27, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Something wild
is loose
Picture of Doc H.
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by SgtGold:
quote:
Originally posted by limblessbiff:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc H.:
Or they could use the Air Force's test on stationary bikes. In case our enemies ever attack us on stationary bikes.



Unless things have changed in the past few years the chair force pt test was very similar to the APFT. The run was a mile and a half but they had less time, and if they fail it twice they got demoted


Both the Army and the AF have alternative events if you have a run profile. The Army is single speed road bike, stationary bike, timed pass/fail walk, and swim events.


For some years prior to 2004 there was no option to run - you sat on a bike and it measured the rise in your HR as a measure of fitness. So if you fail, we'll chuck you out. But don't let that concern you. Shouldn't affect your heart rate. BTW, many runners failed the test because it wasn't calibrated for actual athletes. Gen Jumper replaced this nonsense - thanks John!

AF Fitness



"And gentlemen in England now abed, shall think themselves accursed they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks that fought with us upon Saint Crispin's Day"
 
Posts: 2248 | Location: The Shire | Registered: October 22, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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