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| I made it so far, now I'll go for more  |
Same deal as if you walked into a gun shop with your buddy (with proper licensing) and was going to buy him a gun because he's a nice guy and you just won some money. He does the paperwork and you pay the man. Perfectly legal. The FFL doesn't care who ponies up the cash, why should you? Bob I am no expert, but think I am sometimes. | |||
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Don't Panic |
IANAL, but you may be conflating two distinct things. 1) who you interacted with in offering the gun for sale, getting paid, and designating the FFL to ship to, and 2) who will be picking up the gun and signing the 4479 at the FFL If the interaction in #1 resulted in you getting paid and the gun getting delivered to the FFL, then both you and the buyer should be happy. There is no Federal regulation that I know of that applies to that transaction, other than that it go through a FFL if it's interstate. (There might be state/local rules if it's in-state, of course.) If the interaction in #2 satisfies the Federal regulations, as well as any state/local laws, then the FFL and the individual who picks up the gun (and the Feds, and the state/local LEOs) should be happy. You are not part of interaction #2. Thought exercise - assuming you got paid, if nobody ever picked up the gun, and it stayed at the FFL forever, would that be your concern? The 'straw purchase' violation applies if someone other than the 4479 signer is to receive the gun - who paid for the gun is not a variable. | |||
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To the contrary, the FFL does care, because if the person, who ponies up the cash is a felon or otherwise ineligible to purchase a gun, it is a straw purchase. They are concerned that when you walk outside, the person, who filled out the forms, hands it off to the person, who paid for it. | |||
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Waiting for Hachiko |
I told the buyer, this sale was on hold until it gets cleard up. They have mailed payment, and if it's not cleared up, the payment will b returned. My focal point is the person contacting and arranging this sale should have told me when they spoke and verified they were buying the pistol, what their intent was. As Chongo stated, me finding out later, my first thought was buyer is getting some one else to purchase the gun for them. 美しい犬 | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
Is the logic here that it isn't illegal for the seller? The illegal act in a straw purchase of firearms is buying a firearm for another party (other than bona fide gift). The buyer and eventual owner are committing the crime and the purchaser is lieing on the 4473. The crime as defined by the law has nothing to do with the seller. | |||
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| I made it so far, now I'll go for more |
You missed the part where I said ( with proper licensing). Bob I am no expert, but think I am sometimes. | |||
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| Member |
I don't think you have to worry. It's the people on the other end. I gave my brother $400 in cash to buy my nephew a gun. We're in Ohio. My nephew is on base in NC. My brother said they walked into the store, his son picked out the gun, and my brother paid for it. His son did the paperwork. No issues. Either would've passed the check. | |||
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Still finding my way |
Forgive me if I missed something but it sounds legal to me. I have done a couple of similar deals when buying for my wife or my dad. (All legal of course.) I would arrange with the ffl and pay the money but my wife or dad would fill out the transfer paperwork so the gun was legally in their name. I guess the difference is I was always up front with what I was intending to do which was basically hand over my credit card. | |||
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| Thank you Very little  |
Is it going to Chicago? It does sound like using the internet to buy a gun in a straw purchase since the person taking delivery isn't paying for the purchase, why would a valid buyer have to have a stand in sign the 4473. Then again it could be a gift, could be a family member taking delivery, all kinds of legal reasons this would be valid, same as the buyer paying at the store but the 4473 being completed and done by a valid owner. I think the 'straw purchase' happens when you buy the gun, you complete the 4473 in your name and then give it to someone else which was the intent the whole time. | |||
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Shall Not Be Infringed |
Here's the previous thread -> https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...935/m/7820046634/p/1 Here's a relevant post quoted from that thread:
That said, 'honestlou' made some VERY Good Points throughout the previous thread, and summarized the issue well in his post on p5....The whole thread is worth the read! ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Save America! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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| 10mm is The Boom of Doom  |
A good argument. Maybe a winning argument. Do you want to take a chance that you'll have to pay a lawyer to argue it for you in court, for a one off transaction. If there is even a whiff of something amiss, I would walk to the exit. The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People again must learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. ~ Cicero 55 BC The Dhimocrats love America like ticks love a hound. | |||
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| Member |
This is why I stopped selling guns face to face. A guy in ct bought a bolt action rifle from me. I met him. During the convo, it got a bit weird. This was just after sandy hook. I made him call it in and do the transfer via the sate police. After that went through he told me it was a giving it to a freind. I was like WTF. I called state police back. They said, meh, he went through. The whole guy, conversation, state police call, after payment conversation made my skin crawl. I have horse traded guns up into the 200-300 times range over the last 25 years. Not once before this have i had any heebeejeebees. This one though... never again. I have sold a couple of guns here on sig forum since. 2, total. Everything else is taken down to the local shop and put on consignment. | |||
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I will get by |
sigmonkey, your like 684 years old... care to share your secret of longevity? As for the topic here -- I have refused 2 sales over the years cause I was deceived (lied to...)by the purchaser much the same as you are being -- After the 'I'll buy it' came the 'Oh, I meant to say...' and I have no interest in creating potential future problems with the government. Do not necessarily attribute someone's nasty or inappropriate actions as intended when it may be explained by ignorance or stupidity. | |||
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| Still finding my way |
I've heard it from several ffl's that if someone wanted to buy everyone a pistol who walked through the door of a gun store he legally could as long as each person filled out the form themselves. Another person paying doesn't make anything illegal as long as the person who filled out the form takes possession. | |||
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Certified All Positions |
As long as it is going through an FFL, and that FFL is satisfied that the person doing the 4473 is the actual purchaser, then there is no problem. Frankly, when I sell a gun, I go with the law and my gut. If something seems fishy, it's fishy and I don't sell to that person. Go with your instinct, if it feels weird, that is enough to not risk your involvement. Arc. ______________________________ "Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash "I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM "You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP | |||
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| Shall Not Be Infringed |
Proper Licensing?? It's an Interstate Transfer of a Handgun. The only 'licensing' that would make any difference (even in your local gun shop scenario) would be if your 'buddy' was an FFL. We're talking about compliance with Federal Firearms Law....There is no other 'licensing' that applies here! ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Save America! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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| Thank you Very little |
From the ATF Guidelines, Page 165 15. STRAW PURCHASES Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee. An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law by falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of false statements on the form. Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above example, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473. The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer's records. Link to ATF on Straw Purchases | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine  |
If the person actually receiving the gun is the person the FFL transfers it to, then everything is fine. But X cannot be the transferee and then turn around and hand it to Y. I think, though, that is the FFL's worry and not yours. The FFL is, as I understand it, the one who has to not know that the transferee is buying the gun for someone else. Even the FFL doesn't have to do an independent investigation to make sure it isn't a straw purchase. There is an exception for gifts. I can buy a gun and give it to my son for Christmas. It better be a real gift and not a sham. I can't buy a gun and give it to a guy I just met in the parking lot. That would be a straw purchase. That all said, if you think this is a straw purchase, I would put on the brakes. But if it is just that X saw your ad, and passed that on to Y, who is going to be the buyer, I think you are okay. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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