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Peace through
superior firepower
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That's right.
 
Posts: 107258 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
eh-TEE-oh-clez
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So the firefighters were in the small plane? It sucks that people died, but it sounded more tragic when I thought that two firefighters died heroically in the line of duty.
 
Posts: 13046 | Location: Orange County, California | Registered: May 19, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Flyboyrv6:
“He said he didn’t recall making a radio call on UNICOM”
It is hard to understand how a pilot qualified to fly a turbine aircraft fails to perform a basic requirement of landing at a non-towered airport. The only control over non-towered operations is radio communication of position and “see and be seen”.


The language isn't very clear. It sounds like what was meant to be said was that the Citation piot didn't hear a transmission from the 150, while other witnesses said the 150 pilot was talking on the radio.

Witness reports are notoriously unreliable. It's very possible, especially if having just flown an ILS and transitioned from ATC, to be on the wrong frequency. It's also possible that mic volumes were down, the 150 was transmitting on the wrong frequency or had something else selected, that voice transmissions were good but while focusing on other things, one crew or the other simply didn't hear the transmissions, or other possibilities.

There's insufficient information there to go on. What is given is subjective and can be read several ways.
 
Posts: 6650 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of aileron
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Reading some of the reports and knowing the Citation pilot, there's inaccurate reporting as the Citation pilot's brother (same last name) is the airport manager. The news sources are reporting "shared last name" did this or that is creating ambiguity and resulting in misquotes & inaccuracies.

Best to wait a few days for the NTSB preliminary report.
 
Posts: 1472 | Location: Montana - bear country | Registered: March 20, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by aileron:
Reading some of the reports and knowing the Citation pilot, there's inaccurate reporting as the Citation pilot's brother (same last name) is the airport manager. The news sources are reporting "shared last name" did this or that is creating ambiguity and resulting in misquotes & inaccuracies.

Best to wait a few days for the NTSB preliminary report.


The post by Screaming Cockatoo on page 1 quotes the preliminary report, but there is no link.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So do smaller planes have a box that would record these events? If not they need to. Would make this much easier, if you had proof that one person was broadcasting.


Used guns deserve a home too
 
Posts: 783 | Location: North Ga | Registered: August 06, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
War Damn Eagle!
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https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenera...Type=Prelim&IType=FA


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Posts: 12537 | Location: Realville | Registered: June 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Drill Here, Drill Now
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I have what is probably a really dumb question as I’m not a pilot and am just a frequent flyer.

Takeoff and landing both need lift, and crosswinds increase risk of both activities. I’m used to seeing takeoff and landings occur on parallel runways at major airports.

My understanding of x shaped airports is so takeoff and landing can be with the wind. Therefore, my question is why would one plane be landing one direction on the x and another plane be taking off another direction on the x? Either there were swirling winds, I’m really missing something, or one of the pilots was on the wrong runway.



Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.
 
Posts: 23099 | Location: Northern Suburbs of Houston | Registered: November 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
I have what is probably a really dumb question as I’m not a pilot and am just a frequent flyer.

Takeoff and landing both need lift, and crosswinds increase risk of both activities. I’m used to seeing takeoff and landings occur on parallel runways at major airports.

My understanding of x shaped airports is so takeoff and landing can be with the wind. Therefore, my question is why would one plane be landing one direction on the x and another plane be taking off another direction on the x? Either there were swirling winds, I’m really missing something, or one of the pilots was on the wrong runway.

Take offs & landings are generally done into the wind (or the runway that would be closest to).
Could be a number of reasons for using a different runway e.g. crosswind that is in between which runway to use; low/variable wind; direction of traffic; training for something like a forced landing, etc.
 
Posts: 880 | Registered: October 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fatmanspencer:
So do smaller planes have a box that would record these events? If not they need to. Would make this much easier, if you had proof that one person was broadcasting.


Not as a rule. Some small aircraft are equipped with a cockpit voice recorder (CVR), and almost no small aircraft have a flight data recorder (FDR). Some instrumentation systems on some aircraft do have memory functions, but not what is found in a FDR.

Some airports with a Unicom function record calls on the frequency. Most don't, and airports that have only a CTAF (common traffic advisory frequency) don't record radio traffic. There is no requirement at uncontrolled fields to make radio calls, or to even be equipped with a radio, for that matter. Ultimately, it's see-and-avoid, not hear-and-avoid.

quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
I have what is probably a really dumb question as I’m not a pilot and am just a frequent flyer.

Takeoff and landing both need lift, and crosswinds increase risk of both activities. I’m used to seeing takeoff and landings occur on parallel runways at major airports.

My understanding of x shaped airports is so takeoff and landing can be with the wind. Therefore, my question is why would one plane be landing one direction on the x and another plane be taking off another direction on the x? Either there were swirling winds, I’m really missing something, or one of the pilots was on the wrong runway.


The short answer is runway length. At Marion, runway 4-22 is 6,011' long, with 5,011' available after landing with the instrument landing system. The cross runway, 15-33, is only 3,456' long. Both are 100' wide.

15-33 is plenty to land and takeoff using a cessna 150. Not so for a turbojet airplane, particularly at gross weight. Additionally, the jet is flying on an instrument flight plan, and will use an instrument arrival. All but one instrument approaches to the airport land on runway 4 or 22, and the most preferred, and most precise of those approaches is the Instrument Landing System (ILS) to runway 4.

Crosswind doesn't increase risk. There are limits or demonstrated values for all aircraft, but the overriding concerns for the arriving Citation in this case is runway length, and availability of an approach.

Another consideration on the cross runway is lack of taxiways. While a parallel taxiway is available to both ends of runway 04-22, there is no taxiway for 15-33; just a small turnaround point at each end. For many aircraft, that may be insufficient, depending on turn radius, wingtip clearance, etc.

Additionally, at the moment, on the shorter cross runway, the visual precision approach path indicator (PAPI) lights are out of service, as well as the end identifier and other lights.

Neither pilot was on the "wrong runway," as it's an uncontrolled airport. They can use whatever runway they like. It may be that the wind favored the cross runway, but the citation would need the longer runway anyway, and the 150 was using a more favorable runway. It may be that the short, cross runway had a crosswind that was being used for crosswind landing practice.

Due to trees on the field, a number of airfields don't permit line of sight from the departure end of one runway to another, which I believe is the case at marion, depending on the runway in question.

Parallel runways are to increase traffic volume, and often used to allow takeoffs on one runway while landing the other; the volume issue with large aircraft is different than small airfields, due to increased wake turbulence separation requirements. This isn't an issue at airports such as Marion.

It's worth noting that the runway numbers, 04-22, represent the name of the runway, and also it's magnetic direction referenced to magnetic north. Runway 04 is within 5 degrees of magnetic heading 040, and runway 22 is the opposite direction, 220 degrees magnetic. It's the same runway, just approached from opposite directions. It's not uncommon at some airfields to have traffic taking off and landing in both directions on the same piece of tarmac. This isn't illegal (or unsafe), either, and I've done it many times, especially when firefighting or doing ag work (crop dusting). I'll regularly takeoff one direction, land the other. Aircraft using intersecting runways are very common, but it's all the more important to be aware of other aircraft on the ground and in flight.
 
Posts: 6650 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
אַרְיֵה
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quote:
Originally posted by tatortodd:
My understanding of x shaped airports is so takeoff and landing can be with the wind. Therefore, my question is why would one plane be landing one direction on the x and another plane be taking off another direction on the x? Either there were swirling winds, I’m really missing something, or one of the pilots was on the wrong runway.
Could be a number of factors. Example: Think of Chicago's Midway airport. Basically a square, with runways at 90 degrees to each other -- the diagonals of the square. So, one set is oriented Northeast / Southwest, and the other set is Northwest / Southeast. Now, let us assume that there is a moderately brisk wind from due north. Midway does not have a runway facing due north. One set of runways would give a crosswind of approximately 45 degrees from the left, the other set would have a crosswind approximately 45 degrees from the right. No advantage to either one (ignoring some esoteric aerodynamic stuff that comes into play with propellor driven airplanes).

Another factor might be runway length. The accident that was the main topic of this thread involved a Citation jet and a light Cessna 150 (152?). The Citation needs a lot longer runway than the 150. At the airport in question, one runway is a bit over 6,000 ft, the other is about 3,500 ft. Even if the winds favor the shorter runway, the Citation would likely use the longer runway; depending on conditions, it might be better to deal with a crosswind on a longer runway than to risk running out of braking distance on a shorter runway.

Also, at some airports, there might be a significant difference in instrument approach facilities that would influence the choice of runways.

There are a lot of factors that go into deciding what runway to use, especially at a non-towered airport, where the pilot has sole discretion for the decision. At an airport with an operating control tower, the assignment is initially made by the tower controller, but that is not necessarily a unilateral decision: the pilot can always request a different runway (I have done this numerous times, for various reasons) and more often than not, the request will be granted.

EDIT: I see that guppy and I said essentially the same thing. I did not see his reply, while I was typing mine.



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Posts: 30545 | Location: Central Florida, Orlando area | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Drill Here, Drill Now
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Thanks V-tail and Guppy.

Your explanations helped as I had never considered that:
  • the X would have unequal length legs to it.
  • they wouldn't knock down all of the trees at an untowered airport so that a plane spooling up for take-off on one leg of the x might not see a plane on approach for a landing on the other leg of the x.



    Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

    DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.
  •  
    Posts: 23099 | Location: Northern Suburbs of Houston | Registered: November 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Ammoholic
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    As someone who worked in a business doing recoveries on contract for the insurance companies, what happens with the hulls is all on the insurance companies. If they decide is economical to fix them, they fix them. If they decide it is not economical, they total them and auction the salvage. This is one good reason not to underinsure your airplane. More than once someone underinsured, thinking they were saving money, only to have the insurance company hand them a check that wouldn't replace the airplane.

    Buyers often repair the salvaged airplanes. They also often use them for parts to repair other airplanes. Bid sheets go out regularly from the insurance companies and most salvage yards as well as many private individuals bid on stuff they are interested in.

    The accident is very unfortunate. There may be blame on both sides, but it is exceedingly unlikely that any information we get from the media will be the least bit useful in figuring out what happened. The NTSB preliminary report rarely draws anything remotely resembling a conclusion, but it does state that the Citation pilot did not recall making a radio call. Hopefully his cockpit voice recorder has a record of one. See and avoid sounds great in principal, but it has definitely limitations. One has to build a picture of what is going on in the airport environment with all available tools.
     
    Posts: 6872 | Location: Lost, but making time. | Registered: February 23, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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    Aircraft waiting to takeoff are often not positioned to see aircraft approaching to land. Piston airplanes such as the Cessna 150 will be pointed into the wind prior to takeoff, and conduct what's called a "runup," during which engine functions are checked. If the wind was straight down runway 4, it's possible that the Cessna 150 would have been facing away from the approaching Citation. If it began a turn back to the runway as the citation was on short final, it might miss the citation entirely, especially if line of sight was obstructed due to obstacles.

    Visibility was four miles in haze. The Citation isn't easy to spot from a head-on aspect, especially with reduced visibility. The citation is faster on approach than what the 150 pilots might expect, and if they looked at the final approach area and saw nothing, it's possible that the citation came into view after they'd checked.

    The 150 may not have been displaying lighting, such as a beacon, which may have made it harder to detect. The Citation pilot also said he didn't see anything on TCAS, which gives an indication of other traffic based on the other traffic's transponder beacon. Most general aviation pilots don't turn on the transponder until directly before departure, and some TCAS information is inhibited at low altitude on approach to land; lack of TCAS traffic doesn't mean it isn't there. TCAS frequently doesn't "see" traffic, either.

    Typically every runway at a given airport has different lengths. The useable length of a runway is shorter than its actual length, and useable length depends on the type of aircraft and operation (weight, airline/charter vs. private, etc), as well as whether the aircraft is taking off or landing. Departures and landings into the wind are made to reduced takeoff and landing distance. Runway usability is also governed in many cases by what lays before and after the runway; obstacles and "clearways" are part of takeoff performance and calculations. Runways also have weight bearing values which determine which aircraft can use them, and many have noise abatement requirements, procedures, or airport restrictions which dictate what type of operation or aircraft can use the runway.
     
    Posts: 6650 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    אַרְיֵה
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    One more note for TatorTodd: There are numerous sources for airport information. One of the "official" publications is the Airport / Facility Directory. These are published for geographical areas in the U.S. and they list mucho information about each airport, runway configuration, radio frequencies, and a bunch of other stuff. There are questions about interpreting this on every FAA pilot test.

    The books are reissued periodically, every 58 days if my memory is correct. They are available by subscription, or the pilot supply shop at many airports sell them. They are only a few bucks. You can also view the information from this directory online at the FAA website, it's free. I linked the image below, from the FAA website.

    In order to understand all of the information that's in an airport listing, you need to use your Captain Midnight Secret Decoder Ring. There's also an index and explanation of all abbreviations and symbols in each book.

    Here is the entry for the airport where the unfortunate accident occurred:




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    Posts: 30545 | Location: Central Florida, Orlando area | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    I'd rather have luck
    than skill any day
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    V-tail, not sure what happened to your AFD link...here's the link from airnav.com

    KMZZ
     
    Posts: 1817 | Location: Fayetteville, Georgia | Registered: December 08, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Just because you can,
    doesn't mean you should
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    I looked it up on google earth to see a photo but I don't know how to show it here.
    There are trees on one end but the area is mostly clear. The trees don't go very far past the initial roll out area but by then a high wing would make it harder to see aircraft approaching from above.
    My only piloting experience was years ago learning to get a private license. Although it may not be required, I was taught to always state my intentions at each step on UNICOM at uncontrolled airports. There is wisdom in that practice as shown here, even though it isn't officially required.
    I suspect a combination of complacency and bad luck will prove to be the culprit here. Bad luck, because this appears to be a low traffic airport and having two planes crossing paths in any case is less likely. Complacency because both were experienced pilots and may have done this a thousand times before without any problem.
    This is a good lesson for gun safety too. Once you get a lot of experience it's easy to take some shortcuts.

    There is a video from a helicopter in this news report. Watch at the last minute or so and you'll see a higher shot that gives you an idea of the larger area.
    Looks like the Citation may have been spun around by the impact and that the 150 did not leave from the tree obscured end of the runway.

    https://www.wcpo.com/news/nati...t-airport-in-indiana

    This message has been edited. Last edited by: 220-9er,


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    Posts: 9456 | Location: NE GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    I believe in the
    principle of
    Due Process
    Picture of JALLEN
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by 220-9er:
    I looked it up on google earth to see a photo but I don't know how to show it here.
    There are trees on one end but the area is mostly clear. The trees don't go very far past the initial roll out area but by then a high wing would make it harder to see aircraft approaching from above.
    My only piloting experience was years ago learning to get a private license. Although it may not be required, I was taught to always state my intentions at each step on UNICOM at uncontrolled airports. There is wisdom in that practice as shown here, even though it isn't officially required.
    I suspect a combination of complacency and bad luck will prove to be the culprit here. Bad luck, because this appears to be a low traffic airport and having two planes crossing paths in any case is less likely. Complacency because both were experienced pilots and may have done this a thousand times before without any problem.
    This is a good lesson for gun safety too. Once you get a lot of experience it's easy to take some shortcuts.

    There is a video from a helicopter in this news report. Watch at the last minute or so and you'll see a higher shot that gives you an idea of the larger area.
    Looks like the Citation may have been spun around by the impact and that the 150 did not leave from the tree obscured end of the runway.

    https://www.wcpo.com/news/nati...t-airport-in-indiana


    Keep in mind the runways they were using, 15 to the south east by the 150 and 22 landing southwest by the jet, according to the NTSB prelim.




    Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

    When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

    "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
     
    Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    אַרְיֵה
    Picture of V-Tail
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by mjlennon:
    V-tail, not sure what happened to your AFD link
    Dunno, I just looked and it's showing up just fine. Anyway, here's the link: http://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/29m...ec_123_29MAR2018.pdf



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    Posts: 30545 | Location: Central Florida, Orlando area | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
    Member
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by JALLEN:


    There is a data plate riveted to the airframe, usually on one side near the tail. There is an airworthiness certificate inside, a piece of paper displayed on one wall of the interior. Both of those must be in the plane in operation.

    With those, though, all other parts are replaceable.

    When Cessna stopped building single engine airplanes in the mid-80s, those became pretty valuable. I have seen 172s in airworthy condition, built from parts of an unknown number of different airplanes.

    They buy wrecks, salvage parts, get a data plate and certificate, and rivet and bolt and wire enough parts together, a wing, a wing spar, cabin, instrument panel, tail surfaces, instruments, engine, etc., to get a working airplane that meets specs.

    Interesting. So are the Airworthiness Certificate serial numbered to a specific airplane or are they just a designation that a particular model type has been certified as airworthy if built to a defined set of specs?
     
    Posts: 2466 | Location: WI | Registered: December 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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