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On the DL
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I just heard back from my younger (prosecuting attorney in Ohio). Here's his reply:

"Crimes - drug related mostly. Trafficking and of course abuse. This also leads to a lot of theft and robbery because people need $ to buy more drugs. Sad cycle"



A mind is a terrible thing.
 
Posts: 16442 | Location: Central Florida (near Orlando) | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fortified with Sleestak
Picture of thunderson
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quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:

We have had threads about rogue police officers, FBI agents too, causing innocents to be convicted. Now we have the prospect of a senior FBI agent with his thumb on the scale against our noble President, even.



I often wonder about these kinds of cases because I really don't know. How often are these things prosecuted opposed to a settlement? I feel like this may be one of the few instances where we really could make the punishment fit the crime. For example: Rogue officer/agent knowingly causes an innocent person to be convicted of a crime with a sentence of life without possibility, well there's the punishment right there. If you're willing to strip freedom/livelyhood/etc. from another person for your personal gain, then you can lose just as much.



I have the heart of a lion.......and a lifetime ban from the Toronto Zoo.- Unknown
 
Posts: 4421 | Location: Shenandoah Valley, VA | Registered: November 05, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The guy behind the guy
Picture of esdunbar
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quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
You may be familiar with the murder conviction of Debra Milke in Arizona, and the opinion of Judge Kozinski which led to her release after more than 20 years. http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/da...%20-%20corrected.pdf

If this was a one off, I might not worry too much, but it isn’t.


Do you think this would happen to the same person 4 separate times in their life?

We can "what if" until the cows come home, but at some point we have to draw a line.

One could argue we should never incarcerate anyone because we risk incarcerating someone wrongly.

If you get framed/cheated/wrongfully prosecuted 4 separate times in your life...I mean, come on, is that realistic?


E.S. Dunbar
________________________________
I'm confused...wait, maybe I'm not.
 
Posts: 6007 | Location: Toledo, Ohio | Registered: April 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by esdunbar:
Sadly, in my experience, most every client I had who was a child abuser/child porn addict was abused themselves as a child. It is a cycle. They were victims once as children, and they go on to be abusers as a result.



I have seen that written elsewhere. I find the link between the two very hard to understand.

I would think it would be the opposite - like if you grow up watching your drunk Dad beat your Mom ... you would never want to touch a drop of alcohol.

-------------------------------


Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
 
Posts: 6128 | Location: Eastern NC | Registered: September 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by esdunbar:
quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
You may be familiar with the murder conviction of Debra Milke in Arizona, and the opinion of Judge Kozinski which led to her release after more than 20 years. http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/da...%20-%20corrected.pdf

If this was a one off, I might not worry too much, but it isn’t.


Do you think this would happen to the same person 4 separate times in their life?

We can "what if" until the cows come home, but at some point we have to draw a line.

One could argue we should never incarcerate anyone because we risk incarcerating someone wrongly.

If you get framed/cheated/wrongfully prosecuted 4 separate times in your life...I mean, come on, is that realistic?


I agree.

Although I will say that I know a bunch of people who have that many felonies and said they did not do a bit of it. Regardless of the video, DNA, etc (and they took a plea to keep from catching the PFO enhancement) and the fact that they got caught injecting dope by a police officer (all of which is on body cam), to which they didn't do either. They were railroaded. Those weren't even their pants.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 30750 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Sig209:
I would think it would be the opposite - like if you grow up watching your drunk Dad beat your Mom ... you would never want to touch a drop of alcohol.


It would be so nice if this were the case. And sometimes, rarely, it is. But often when something is that ingrained in a young child it's hard to break the cycle even if you want to. Meaning that boys who see their fathers beat their mom often grow up to do the same and girls who see their mother getting beat often grow up to be with an abusive man.
 
Posts: 767 | Registered: July 06, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by esdunbar:
quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
You may be familiar with the murder conviction of Debra Milke in Arizona, and the opinion of Judge Kozinski which led to her release after more than 20 years. http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/da...%20-%20corrected.pdf

If this was a one off, I might not worry too much, but it isn’t.


Do you think this would happen to the same person 4 separate times in their life?

We can "what if" until the cows come home, but at some point we have to draw a line.

One could argue we should never incarcerate anyone because we risk incarcerating someone wrongly.

If you get framed/cheated/wrongfully prosecuted 4 separate times in your life...I mean, come on, is that realistic?


Odds are no, of course, but what about the 4th one? That’s the only one that really counts. If that is the one they fabricate, you’re goners.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 43267 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Ken226
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I guess it's a matter of opinion. In the opinion of many, including myself, a slight increase in the probability of the state executing someone who was only a shithead 3 times, then wrongfully convicted on the 4th is worth the reduction in crime from the policy.

The question is: Is the juice worth the squeeze? As a matter of opinion, yes.

Lawyers may hate the policy though. Society wouldn't need near as many lawyers. For them, the juice probably isn't worth the squeeze.


Machine Shop
07/02
 
Posts: 1182 | Location: Top Left Corner | Registered: December 23, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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quote:
Originally posted by Ken226:
Lawyers may hate the policy though. Society wouldn't need near as many lawyers.


Bingo.

There would be a ripple effect. Layoffs at BMW dealerships, custom suit makers, TV stations would have to find a way to make up advertising revenue, toupee makers, plastic surgeons (for installation of trophy wife racks), etc.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 30750 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nature is full of
magnificent creatures
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quote:
Originally posted by Palm:
I am a prosecutor (assistant, not the actual elected official) in Michigan. I prosecute mostly sex crimes with child victims.


As a parent, I have no idea how you do that, but I am grateful you do. I'm especially thankful if you are able to help the victims. Those who work to protect the innocent are doing great good, in my opinion.
 
Posts: 4824 | Registered: March 24, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ken226:
I guess it's a matter of opinion. In the opinion of many, including myself, a slight increase in the probability of the state executing someone who was only a shithead 3 times, then wrongfully convicted on the 4th is worth the reduction in crime from the policy.

The question is: Is the juice worth the squeeze? As a matter of opinion, yes.

Lawyers may hate the policy though. Society wouldn't need near as many lawyers. For them, the juice probably isn't worth the squeeze.


This is one of the stupidest recurring themes regularly seen in these threads.

Maybe you would be happiest to dispense with all this due process nonsense, just have the police pick up everyone they think might have something to do with some criminal situation and just execute them straight away.

I was meeting with a Saudi fellow years ago after the bombing at Khobar towers. The Saudi’s had arrested 5 or 6 guys and executed them. I asked if he thought they were the perps. He shrugged and said “maybe.”




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 43267 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The guy behind the guy
Picture of esdunbar
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
quote:
Originally posted by esdunbar:
quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
You may be familiar with the murder conviction of Debra Milke in Arizona, and the opinion of Judge Kozinski which led to her release after more than 20 years. http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/da...%20-%20corrected.pdf

If this was a one off, I might not worry too much, but it isn’t.


Do you think this would happen to the same person 4 separate times in their life?

We can "what if" until the cows come home, but at some point we have to draw a line.

One could argue we should never incarcerate anyone because we risk incarcerating someone wrongly.

If you get framed/cheated/wrongfully prosecuted 4 separate times in your life...I mean, come on, is that realistic?


Odds are no, of course, but what about the 4th one? That’s the only one that really counts. If that is the one they fabricate, you’re goners.


I respectfully offer the follow counter arguments.

A person should be concerned with all 4 convictions. The point is that you shouldn't be living thinking I can get three felonies and be fine. You should live your life so you don't even get close to that threshold...and I'm ok with a policy that promotes that.

Furthermore, the argument exists today with our current system. A corrupt member of the executive branch can get someone pegged for a crime that would include the death penalty if so desired. At a minimum, they could ensure that person spent the rest of their life in jail by simply obtaining false felony concoctions every time the person was shocked out of jail.

Somewhere we have to draw a line and simply remove people from our society. Whether we do that by investing in prisons to hold them or put them to death, I'd be fine with either.

Where exactly that line is can and should be debated. The only answer I would find completely unacceptable is our current system of constantly recycling criminals through the revolving door that lands them on the street to prey on innocent people. So long as we do this, talking about fixing crime in our country is a complete joke.

Two felony convictions seemed like too few. Three was debatable to me. Four felt like the right number to me. if you get caught and convicted of four felonies, I highly doubt those are the only four felony level crimes you've committed in your life. As such, I don't think you really belong out on the streets to hurt my family. I'm fine saying you need to go away.


E.S. Dunbar
________________________________
I'm confused...wait, maybe I'm not.
 
Posts: 6007 | Location: Toledo, Ohio | Registered: April 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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[/QUOTE]I agree.

Although I will say that I know a bunch of people who have that many felonies and said they did not do a bit of it. Regardless of the video, DNA, etc (and they took a plea to keep from catching the PFO enhancement) and the fact that they got caught injecting dope by a police officer (all of which is on body cam), to which they didn't do either. They were railroaded. Those weren't even their pants.[/QUOTE] JLJONES

Oh, you know my client then. Police keep a pair of "throwdown" pants in their car routinely, you know, for just this occasion.

Me: wouldn't it be easier to just throw down the drugs or gun or whatever?

Client: Nah, then you'd know it was planted.

Me: I see.


"Ultima Ratio Regum"
Life Member NRA
Member Washington Arms Collectors
The designer of the gun had clearly not been instructed to beat about the bush. 'Make it evil,' he'd been told. 'Make it totally clear that this gun has a right end and a wrong end. Make it totally clear to anyone standing at the wrong end that things are going badly for them. If that means sticking all sort of spikes and prongs and blackened bits all over it then so be it. This is not a gun for hanging over the fireplace or sticking in the umbrella stand, it is a gun for going out and making people miserable with.'
 
Posts: 477 | Location: T-town in the 253 | Registered: January 16, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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quote:
Originally posted by Loswsmith:
I agree.

Although I will say that I know a bunch of people who have that many felonies and said they did not do a bit of it. Regardless of the video, DNA, etc (and they took a plea to keep from catching the PFO enhancement) and the fact that they got caught injecting dope by a police officer (all of which is on body cam), to which they didn't do either. They were railroaded. Those weren't even their pants.[/QUOTE] JLJONES

Oh, you know my client then. Police keep a pair of "throwdown" pants in their car routinely, you know, for just this occasion.

Me: wouldn't it be easier to just throw down the drugs or gun or whatever?

Client: Nah, then you'd know it was planted.

Me: I see.[/QUOTE]

Straight up! Big Grin


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 30750 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by esdunbar:


I respectfully offer the follow counter arguments.

A person should be concerned with all 4 convictions. The point is that you shouldn't be living thinking I can get three felonies and be fine. You should live your life so you don't even get close to that threshold...and I'm ok with a policy that promotes that.


It astonishes me how many people have serious criminal records. I’m 72 years old, and have none. No one in my family had ever been arrested or charged with anything. I can’t think of any of my current acquaintences who have criminal records. A guy I grew up with did get nailed years ago for making a false entry in a bank’s books or something, and of course, at least one client had a record. One of the guys who kid was on my kids’ t-ball team was a lawyer fencing stolen property. A law school classmate got pinched for embezzling client trust funds.

It’s just not that hard.

quote:

Somewhere we have to draw a line and simply remove people from our society. Whether we do that by investing in prisons to hold them or put them to death, I'd be fine with either.

Where exactly that line is can and should be debated. The only answer I would find completely unacceptable is our current system of constantly recycling criminals through the revolving door that lands them on the street to prey on innocent people. So long as we do this, talking about fixing crime in our country is a complete joke.


One would be fine with me for violent crimes when reasonable doubt is effectively dealt with. My gold standard is Jack Ruby. No doubt about it.

But 4 convictions of lying to an FBI agent won’t cut it.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 43267 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by Loswsmith:
I agree.

Although I will say that I know a bunch of people who have that many felonies and said they did not do a bit of it. Regardless of the video, DNA, etc (and they took a plea to keep from catching the PFO enhancement) and the fact that they got caught injecting dope by a police officer (all of which is on body cam), to which they didn't do either. They were railroaded. Those weren't even their pants.
JLJONES

Oh, you know my client then. Police keep a pair of "throwdown" pants in their car routinely, you know, for just this occasion.

Me: wouldn't it be easier to just throw down the drugs or gun or whatever?

Client: Nah, then you'd know it was planted.

Me: I see.[/QUOTE]

Straight up! Big Grin[/QUOTE]

True story.


"Ultima Ratio Regum"
Life Member NRA
Member Washington Arms Collectors
The designer of the gun had clearly not been instructed to beat about the bush. 'Make it evil,' he'd been told. 'Make it totally clear that this gun has a right end and a wrong end. Make it totally clear to anyone standing at the wrong end that things are going badly for them. If that means sticking all sort of spikes and prongs and blackened bits all over it then so be it. This is not a gun for hanging over the fireplace or sticking in the umbrella stand, it is a gun for going out and making people miserable with.'
 
Posts: 477 | Location: T-town in the 253 | Registered: January 16, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Res ipsa loquitur
Picture of BB61
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Can we move it back to the intent of the OP? I was interested in what our prosecutor members (or family) see as the main problem in their jurisdiction. Thanks.


__________________________

 
Posts: 9677 | Registered: October 13, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
10mm Angler
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Former prosecutor and currently a presiding municipal court judge. Our issues are minors in possession of alcohol and marijuana, and increasing crimes committed by transients.
 
Posts: 145 | Location: Park County | Registered: February 10, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Former ALJ. There is a connecting thread (invisible or not) between all offenders. They believe that they live alone in this world and can do as they please.

From there on it's just a bunch of variations of the same theme.


***************************
Knowing more by accident than on purpose.
 
Posts: 13753 | Location: Tampa, Florida | Registered: December 12, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A question for Palm. Where are you a Prosecutor at? Meaning which County are you at? You can email me your answer, it is in my profile. I am in Washtenaw County, and we seem to have OK prosecutors, though they tend to be a bit unwilling to fight hard against politically correct cases. For example, they have refused to prosecute each and every one of the muslim women who have made false police reports about being assaulted by supposedly "Trump supporters", whereas, they have prosecuted the women, both white SJW types who claimed that "Trump supporters" assaulted them.


If you think you can, YOU WILL!!!!!
 
Posts: 3592 | Location: Wolverine-Land!!!! | Registered: August 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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