quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
Hmm. I would think landing gear retraction would be an automatic function. Why is it manual?

This is why there are checklists.

All those knobs and indicators in the cockpit, none of them are for landing gear?

I would pay good money to listen to the entire cockpit voice recording of that flight from engine startup to landing.

Landing at PHL, 10:30pm, rainy, windy, mid March 2002 or so, an experienced-looking 40s-something gentleman and a 30-something 'co-pilot' - something about her hair, makeup, and jewelry did not say 'professional pilot'.

From the cabin, it seemed apparent someone was 'practicing' a landing. Even coming into the final, just before touchdown, the nose was ... <gulp> down.

A frequent-looking flyer a row over, gripping the armrests for his life, was convinced we were lucky to make it down.

It seemed clear the controls changed, last minute, from one to the other, from the way maneuvering changed. I see it in construction, a kid making a mess with a Sawzall, drill, even a pick, then an old hand showing him how it is done.

Upon deplaning, a peek into the cockpit reveals the older pilot running through a checklist. The younger sat listless, looking deflated.

My takeaway? Her presence was a quota thing; she was unqualified to fly the plane. US Airways merged and de-existed in 2015.

Quotas can lead to dangerous conditions for all. The Philadelphia Fire Department comes to mind.

I would say that's a level or two above leaving your turn signal on for miles

I bet that pilot drives a car everywhere with one of the turn signals on too.

Spilt my coffee and lost my post spot to Tmats.

quote:

Originally posted by Lab-Kid:
I would pay good money to listen to the entire cockpit voice recording of that flight from engine startup to landing.

Yes, that would be interesting. Unbelievable that you could have that many clues that sumting wong and not figure it out until, I suppose, it was time to put the gear down for landing.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
Maybe 30 years ago, I had a check ride with an examiner to renew my multi-engine instructor certificate.

This particular examiner was a crusty retired PanAm captain. We spent a lot of time discussing the proper gear retraction procedure. His mandate was, absent any instructions to the contrary in the POH (Pilot's Operating Handbook) for the particular make / model of airplane, the generic time to retract landing gear after takeoff was "blue line plus ten."

Blue line is a blue marking on the airspeed indicator that shows the best rate of climb airspeed in the event of the critical engine failing immediately after takeoff, so The Captain wanted gear retraction to be initiated as soon as we were ten knots faster than blue line speed. This was typically a few seconds after becoming airborn.

Did the guy have much Beech time? Last thing I'd be rushing to do close to the ground is open all those doors and add all that drag. To each his own though...

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

quote:

Maybe the wonderBus needs another aural caution - "The Landing Gear are STILL down, the Landing Gear are STILL down..."

Shouldn't it also remind you to slow down to a safe retraction speed?

"Retard. The landing gear is down".

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
EVERY pilot does this ONCE.
<snip>

I'd bet that V-Tail hasn't.

Women tend to not think in a linear fashion, such as engineers usually do. Generally not as mechanically inclined, they do not mentally comprehend what problems could be causing the lack of power.

Not all women are like this, but I believe most are. Probably over 90%.

Wait.

My car starts beeping if I've been driving a few yards with the emergency brake on.

It also has an idiot light that blinks when I'm driving and the back door is open.

Both things I've done. It took another driver in the parking lot to stop me to let me know my back door was open.

But an airline doesn't have an alarm if you've been flying for a while and your retractable landing gear is still down???

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
Wait.

My car starts beeping if I've been driving a few yards with the emergency brake on.

It also has an idiot light that blinks when I'm driving and the back door is open.

Both things I've done. It took another driver in the parking lot to stop me to let me know my back door was open.

But an airline doesn't have an alarm if you've been flying for a while and your retractable landing gear is still down???

Not comparable at all.

A ATP pilot probably has several hundred times more training and experience flying than someone has driving. A pro pilot has been raising and lowering landing gear since shortly after learning to fly. A pilot uses a check list for every operation.

In every retractable gear airplane I have been in, there is a prominent gear down light and handle to raise and lower the gear. The points at which gear should be raised if down and lowered if up vary somewhat which is why it ought not be automated.

Some people who have qualified as pilots ought not be.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
This is why there are checklists.

Checklists come from the patriarchal rape culture. These ancient tools of oppression must be cast aside.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
EVERY pilot does this ONCE.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
Maybe 30 years ago, I had a check ride with an examiner to renew my multi-engine instructor certificate.

This particular examiner was a crusty retired PanAm captain. We spent a lot of time discussing the proper gear retraction procedure. His mandate was, absent any instructions to the contrary in the POH (Pilot's Operating Handbook) for the particular make / model of airplane, the generic time to retract landing gear after takeoff was "blue line plus ten."

Blue line is a blue marking on the airspeed indicator that shows the best rate of climb airspeed in the event of the critical engine failing immediately after takeoff, so The Captain wanted gear retraction to be initiated as soon as we were ten knots faster than blue line speed. This was typically a few seconds after becoming airborn.

Did the guy have much Beech time? Last thing I'd be rushing to do close to the ground is open all those doors and add all that drag. To each his own though...

I re-posted, but added emphasis to the relevant phrase.

You are correct about added drag during gear cycling. In Bonanzas, I teach that gear retraction should be initiated only after obstacle clearance is assured.

I'm going out on a limb here because I realize that folks want to bash the pilots for this and its definitely appropriate to do so in this case. It is not, however, because it was 2 women in the cockpit. 3 guys, including a 55 year old, very senior and experienced Captain with almost 30,000 flight hours, a 39 year old FO and a 51 year old FE (Flight Engineer) managed to fly a perfectly good, brand new Eastern L-1011 into the Florida everglades while trouble shooting a burned out light bulb in the landing gear down indicator. 101 people died out of 163 on board. Countless other accidents have occurred with all male, very experienced crews flying the jet.

That said, in this case there was obviously a break down in Situational Awareness in this crew. In every transport category aircraft there are fairly common callouts on the take off roll. PM: "80 knots" PF: "Checked" PM: "V1" PM "VR or Rotate". After liftoff the PM will normally call "Positive Rate" (of climb, clear of the ground) and then the PF will command "Gear Up". Eventually the PF will call for flap retraction and then for the after T/O checklist. Most After T/O checklists are simply Gear...Up Flaps....Up. Keep in mind that when the PF calls for that After T/O checklist the items have already been accomplished, and the PM just confirms they are complete and announces that the checklist is complete.

So these two were either distracted right at a critical moment in flight and both neglected to make the proper callouts (Each should make the call for the other if either forgets) and actually perform the task of raising the gear. There is a concept called strength of an idea, where a pilot who has lost their Situational Awareness (SA) believes that they have already accomplished a task and doesn't go back to consider the possibility that they hadn't already done that task. It happens often and needs to be combated all the time in aviation.

As to the gear itself, according to the inter webs (I'm not A320 qual'd) the gear retraction speed on the A320 is 220 knots (indicated). They would have been accelerating to 250 knots on climb out and probably got to 250. With the gear extended the gear doors are closed. It is the opening of the gear doors that would be an issue above 220 knots, they might be damaged or separate from the aircraft. The maximum speed with the gear extended 280 knots, not a speed they would be going to until above 10,000 feet. So they can fly along all day at 280 knots with the gear extended and not do any damage to the aircraft. If they then decided to retract the gear, however, they would need to slow to below 220 knots (maybe not possible at the altitude they climbed to without stalling) and retract the gear.

Although they had low SA, at least they were probably trying the entire time to figure out why their fuel flow was so high. Since they were convinced that the gear was up because they had probably accomplished the After T/O checklist, they didn't consider that as a possibility, despite several indications that they should have picked up on.

I've done a few gear down ferry flights in the Boeing 727 for my current employer. The numbers for the 727 were 320 knots with the gear extended, max 200 knots to retract the gear. The first thing on such a flight is to resist the urge to call for the gear up upon rotation and positive rate! That call is so ingrained that its almost impossible not to make. But with the gear locked down you need to make sure you don't try to raise the gear handle. Ask me how I know. Secondly, the noise from the gear is so freaking loud that you can barely talk to one another in the cockpit. There is so much drag and noise that even though you could fly at 320 knots, you stay at about 250 knots just so you can communicate with each other and talk on the radios as well. You also tend to fly about 25,000 feet instead of the more optimal mid to upper 30s depending on the length of the fight. The drag and low altitude flying is what burns up your fuel. My last one was from EWR to MEM and we had to get fuel in CVG (Cincinnati). Took us a total of 4.5 hours of flight time to make what is normally about a 2 hour, 15 minute flight.

What disturbs me about this is that they didn't hear all that noise or notice the lack of performance (not to mention the 3 green lights on the front panel telling them their gear was down) and figure out that they had to have missed something big, like raising the gear. At least they were able to keep enough SA to figure out that they needed to divert before they ran out of fuel. It takes some fortitude to admit something is wrong and correct it even though you know the consequences will be dire instead of pressing on and running out of gas.

The 2 male pilots for Pinnacle flight 3701 in 2004 made a fairly big mistake by going too high and their engines failed, and due to core lock they could not be restarted. They didn't fess up to ATC that they had lost both engines until way late in the game because they feared the repercussions of their decision to goof around at 41,000 feet more than they feared crashing (speculation). Their were no passengers on that aircraft and both pilots died in the crash.

At least these two pilots figured out that something was wrong and they came up with a plan to deal with it, landing the aircraft safely and preserving all the lives on board. And the jet is reusable, a definite bonus.

Flame suit on

भगवान तैयार or إن شاء الله though it may loose something in the translation.

quote:

Originally posted by TMats:
I would say that's a level or two above leaving your turn signal on for miles

Very true!

Running out of fuel is worse than running out of blinker fluid!

quote:

Originally posted by Sigfan Roy:
...There is a concept called strength of an idea, where a pilot who has lost their Situational Awareness (SA) believes that they have already accomplished a task and doesn't go back to consider the possibility that they hadn't already done that task. It happens often and needs to be combated all the time in aviation.

...Although they had low SA, at least they were probably trying the entire time to figure out why their fuel flow was so high. Since they were convinced that the gear was up because they had probably accomplished the After T/O checklist, they didn't consider that as a possibility, despite several indications that they should have picked up on.

Great post, Sigfan Roy.