quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:


Is this guy 25 years old?

Google the author, Ray Starmann, and you will learn a lot about him. there are hints that he has an agenda.

But he was at DS, apparently.

He sounds a lot like David Hackworth, especially his phrase about "perfumed princes". Hackworth, as I recall, made all the same arguments after Vietnam. So if the problem existed after Vietnam, and prior to Desert Storm, then it follows that the problem was not caused by Desert Storm.

I think radioman is right; he has an agenda.

quote:

Originally posted by rch73:
He sounds a lot like David Hackworth, .........

Winner Winner, Chicken Dinner...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...the_Truth_Foundation

look for the author's name in the text of the wiki article. Along with Hackworth.

quote:

Originally posted by domcintosh:
Here is what got you the Military of today:
The replacement of CONUS billets for technical rates by government contractors. Instead of building human capital by having sea-returnees working in industrial shops rebuilding valves, pumps, etc, these jobs were replaced with contractors.

Acquisition Process and Political Favors: There are military programs that continue solely because it gets politicians elected. (F-22, LCS, Abrams, etc.s).

Maintenance and procurement are a whole other ball of wax.

The author is talking about the warrior ethos that was slowly excised from the military beginning in the Clinton era and then accelerated to light speed under Obama. The list of the upper ranks decimated would be a very long one and it filtered down into the lower ranks as well.

I know of several generals from the late 80's and early 90's that absolutely would not have been promoted in today's military.

I really don't think you can deny the author's main point, whether you agree with the linkage to the Gulf War or not.

Yep. I knew things had changed while st ANOC. We had a talking to because some female student had complained about the men farting. I decided it was time to go, the Army had changed.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by domcintosh:
Here is what got you the Military of today:
The replacement of CONUS billets for technical rates by government contractors. Instead of building human capital by having sea-returnees working in industrial shops rebuilding valves, pumps, etc, these jobs were replaced with contractors.

Acquisition Process and Political Favors: There are military programs that continue solely because it gets politicians elected. (F-22, LCS, Abrams, etc.s).

Maintenance and procurement are a whole other ball of wax.

There is more to come beyond those two, but I errantly kicked it out early and have more work to do before I can complete the list.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
Is this guy 25 years old? I recall DS being massively covered by the media. It was not sanitized.

I have a very, very different memory. There were no embeds (zero), no front line coverage at all. You had Bernard Shaw in Baghdad, watching flak, and then you had briefings from Schwarzkopf - no video from the front lines.

In fact you can go here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn8mfg_oEz4

and watch actual CNN footage in 12 parts. No coverage with the troops, no bodies.

BBC coverage, which shows jets taking off and reports from reporters in capitals in the Middle East - no coverage from the front:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si0IsVPTAs4

quote:

Originally posted by Leemur:
Sounds a lot like our post WW2 hangover. We were so badass and no conventional war would ever happen again thanks to nukes. Got a disturbing number of our guys killed in Korea.

Helped in part by Truman's drastic cut in Military funding in 1948. We were using WWII small arms in Korea against hoards of Chinese with up to date Soviet arms.

I believe the warrior ethos to be alive and well among those whose job it is to fight; the leadership ethos is on life support following the magical muslim's reign.

RMD

The America's soldiers have simply become like every other government employee.

quote:

Originally posted by rduckwor:
I believe the warrior ethos to be alive and well among those whose job it is to fight; the leadership ethos is on life support following the magical muslim's reign.

RMD

I believe in my halfway qualified and experienced opinion that your evaluation is 100% correct.

quote:

Originally posted by von Trakehnen:
The America's soldiers have simply become like every other government employee.

Some of them have, but don't assume or imply that they are ALL like that. There are thousands of good men and women who serve their country in accordance with the best traditions of the warrior ethos.

I know a good many of them who are cut from the same cloth as the men who stormed Normandy 73 years ago. . .

I have heard of good Marine NCOs , with multiple combat tours, getting a DUI and then getting kicked/forced out of the Corps.

Does anyone think that great warriors like Chesty Puller or Patton would make it in today's military?

The job of the military is blow shit up and kill people. It takes a special kind of person to do that. We need to let the military run the military, and keep the politicians out of military affairs.

Anyone with a C-Band satellite dish, like me, could watch all kinds of unedited video shot from all over the battle areas. I have tapes, probably unwatchable due to them being off brand (Fuji towers above all others, I have Fuji VHS tapes from 1979 that look great, no other brand comes close) of some really gory stuff that never made the air, but a friend of mine and I watched it as it came over the dish. The "highway of death" was really really rough stuff to watch.

While I agree in general with some of the "theories", I think this is a trend in America overall. In my experience most people's idea of "bravery" or "honor" has to do with what bathroom you use.

quote:

Originally posted by smithbc:
I have heard of good Marine NCOs , with multiple combat tours, getting a DUI and then getting kicked/forced out of the Corps.

Does anyone think that great warriors like Chesty Puller or Patton would make it in today's military?

The job of the military is blow shit up and kill people. It takes a special kind of person to do that. We need to let the military run the military, and keep the politicians out of military affairs.

What about Pappy Boyington? He was an alcoholic (who couldn't stay sober in a Japanese POW camp), a 'bum' (his own admission) who couldn't hold a job in peacetime, a Medal of Honor recipient (I think the only reason they awarded it to him was because they thought he was dead), and one of the greatest combat leaders from WWII (commander of the Black Sheep Squadron).

Boyington thrived in combat, but didn't have much of a place in a peacetime military. As stated about Clint Eastwood's character in "Heartbreak Ridge," some people should be kept in glass cases that say "Break in time of war."

Unfortunately, good order and discipline require certain standards be maintained. If the military doesn't crack down on DUIs and other serious offenses, how can they maintain discipline?

I believe it's possible to be an effective combat soldier/Marine/airman/sailor while STILL adhering to rules and standards of conduct. It's not an all-or-nothing concept, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
Unfortunately, good order and discipline require certain standards be maintained. If the military doesn't crack down on DUIs and other serious offenses, how can they maintain discipline?

True. But, would it not make more sense to keep these highly trained men in as opposed to drumming them out? Take a stripe and some pay and privileges for awhile, but keep them in.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
Unfortunately, good order and discipline require certain standards be maintained. If the military doesn't crack down on DUIs and other serious offenses, how can they maintain discipline?

True. But, would it not make more sense to keep these highly trained men in as opposed to drumming them out? Take a stripe and some pay and privileges for awhile, but keep them in.

I know a Master Sergeant (E-7) who got a DUI. They took a stripe from him and allowed him to retire at 20 (he got the DUI at 19yrs 6 months - they were very lenient, as they COULD have booted him at 19.5 years with NO retirement benefits). Fortunately for him, the Group Commander at the time was a VERY good commander and he was a pretty good Senior NCO. Any other commander could have really dropped the boom on him.

How could people look up to him even as an E-6 (likely as a section chief and supervisor over 4-15 people) with such a record? How could he enforce standards in his people if he doesn't live up to them himself?

This article (or rant as it reads to me) is crap.

You know what was destroyed by the US Military in Desert Storm? The USSR. They were absolutely SHOCKED at how decisive, fast and high-tech we were and it was the final nail in the coffin for them.

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
How could people look up to him even as an E-6 (likely as a section chief and supervisor over 4-15 people) with such a record? How could he enforce standards in his people if he doesn't live up to them himself?

First, I'd be willing to bet that 95% of the soldiers under him have driven drunk. He just got caught. Not saying it's right...just a reality.

Second, we all fuck up, but it's how you behave afterwards that matters. It wouldn't have bothered me at all to have had an NCO above me get a DUI. If it was a continuous pattern of behavior, that would be a different story.