Here's a video of him going past the runaway truck ramp (and almost running another vehicle off the road).

https://kdvr.com/2019/04/26/vi...of-fiery-i-70-crash/

quote:

Originally posted by 1967Goat:
Here's a video of him going past the runaway truck ramp (and almost running another vehicle off the road).

https://kdvr.com/2019/04/26/vi...of-fiery-i-70-crash/

After seeing this, charging him might be appropriate! He had a chance, or multiple chances, to avoid the carnage he caused. He should have never been behind that wheel driving in the mountains, or perhaps anywhere else. I wonder if he is self employed? If not, his employer will likely be a target for civil suits.

It kind of appears that a person with no ability to read and comprehend English (sign for the runaway truck exit), and minimal common sense and/or training was able to acquire a CDL and hit the road in an 18 wheeler.

Not that this comes as much of a surprise based on observations of some of the truck driving in the oilfields of the Permian and Delaware Basins in west Texas.

Cuban, green card - from wet feet/dry feet policy?

Fantastic. Now something new to worry about on the roadways. Sad for all the people affected by this.

The Government is thinking about letting 18-year olds able to get a Commercial Driver’s License wiith some training required.

I used to drive the thirteen western states back in my younger days. I work for a person that owned several trucks. They leased the truck I drove to a company. I can remember going into Oregon down the I5 Ashland Grade at 80,000 lbs. gross. No Exhaust brakes to help hold downhill speed. It was quite a ride.

I used to stop half way down the grade at a rest area and let the brakes cool for about half an hour before going the rest of the way. The brakes were still weak and hot by the time I reached the bottom. There were no runaway ramps back then.

About 4 miles past the bottom of the grade were the scale facility where you had to walk in and show your shipping paperwork to the scale officer for logging of your ton tax. One trip into the scale house the official said there were three trucks also leased to the company we were leased to that tangled up together on the hill about a week earlier. They were not experienced with driving the mountain passes.

At the drivers age, I am sure that experience played a great deal in the accident. The Vide of him going down the pass you can see no smoke coming from under the trailer. Brakes will really get to smoking before the get to the point where they no longer hold the downhill load.

quote:

Originally posted by arfmel:
It kind of appears that a person with no ability to read and comprehend English (sign for the runaway truck exit), and minimal common sense and/or training was able to acquire a CDL and hit the road in an 18 wheeler.

Being able to converse in English is a requirement Federally to acquire a Commercial Drivers License.

That may well be the case, but I’ve been in line at the driver license office behind a Hispanic man who couldn’t understand enough english for the lady behind the counter to tell him which way to face for his license photo. She had to physically turn him around to face the camera. He was getting his CDL renewed.

I doubt he was the only one that ever got a license without being fluent/literate in English.

quote:

Originally posted by arfmel:
It kind of appears that a person with no ability to read and comprehend English (sign for the runaway truck exit), and minimal common sense and/or training was able to acquire a CDL and hit the road in an 18 wheeler.

Not that this comes as much of a surprise based on observations of some of the truck driving in the oilfields of the Permian and Delaware Basins in west Texas.

This exactly. It’s amazing who they will give a CDL.

This will likely be a 23 year old inexperienced ESL Dreamer.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Decker:
So, brake failure? What do the forumites think is a possible cause?

After driving down that grade in a semi for the last twenty years, I can tell you what probably caused the brake failure... THE DRIVER!!

The following is speculation based on A LOT of experience in a 80,000 lb semi on that stretch of road:

The +26,000GVW eastbound speed limit on the grade is 35 until the top of the hill above Golden, CO. That's about two or three miles west of the crash. There, where US 6 meets I70, the CMV speed restriction is lifted, but there's still a bit of grade down to Loveland. If the driver had been speeding from the Johnson Tunnel, that is, running fast and using a lot of brakes, his brakes were cooked and smoking when the speed changed to 70mph. He let it go, thinking he would run it fast down into the flats of Denver, where his brakes would cool. However, when he got to the backup, he had no reserve braking for a panic brake situation, and he couldn't stop.

Some (super shitty, non-professional) drivers, in order to get down a hill as quickly as possible, will essentially use up all their braking capacity on the grade, hitting the bottom of the grade with smoke rolling from the undercarriage. They will then cool in the flat. This technique, while dangerous and wasteful on equipment, allows you to get down the grade as quickly as possible. Ironically, the mandated electronic logbook of 2017 further incentivizes this behavior, all in the guise of safety.

I've personally been in my semi and watched other trucks driving this way. Whether its this particular grade, Mountain Pass coming into Primm, NV, the Grapevine on I5, etc.

I must say, I'm really not surprised. If it was a simple mechanical failure, it should be noted that 8 of the 10 brake cans are 30/30 cans, which means they fail ON due to a mechanical spring pack. Loose air pressure, and the brakes automatically apply. You know all those semi skid marks you always see on the freeway that go to the shoulder? That's where the air line failed under the trailer, and the brakes locked up automatically.

This guy probably deserves to be prosecuted. Especially if there's video of him driving past the escape ramp just above the I70/US6 merge, or witnesses of him rolling smoke from his undercarriage. You can't miss the smell of overheated brakes, and if there are witnesses to that affect, he should be prosecuted.

ETA: I just watched the video of him passing the escape ramp. While he's not rolling smoke from the undercarriage, he drove right past the escape ramp. There is no excuse for causing this crash. He should have rubbed off half the truck on every guard rail he could find. Laid it up on the side. Run it up a bank. Something besides what he did. He probably figured he could ride it out.

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Decker:
So, brake failure? What do the forumites think is a possible cause?

After driving down that grade in a semi for the last twenty years, I can tell you what probably caused the brake failure... THE DRIVER!!

The following is speculation based on A LOT of experience in a 80,000 lb semi on that stretch of road:

The +26,000GVW eastbound speed limit on the grade is 35 until the top of the hill above Golden, CO. That's about two or three miles west of the crash. There, where US 6 meets I70, the CMV speed restriction is lifted, but there's still a bit of grade down to Loveland. If the driver had been speeding from the Johnson Tunnel, that is, running fast and using a lot of brakes, his brakes were cooked and smoking when the speed changed to 70mph. He let it go, thinking he would run it fast down into the flats of Denver, where his brakes would cool. However, when he got to the backup, he had no reserve braking for a panic brake situation, and he couldn't stop.

Some (super shitty, non-professional) drivers, in order to get down a hill as quickly as possible, will essentially use up all their braking capacity on the grade, hitting the bottom of the grade with smoke rolling from the undercarriage. They will then cool in the flat. This technique, while dangerous and wasteful on equipment, allows you to get down the grade as quickly as possible. Ironically, the mandated electronic logbook of 2017 further incentivizes this behavior, all in the guise of safety.

I've personally been in my semi and watched other trucks driving this way. Whether its this particular grade, Mountain Pass coming into Primm, NV, the Grapevine on I5, etc.

I must say, I'm really not surprised. If it was a simple mechanical failure, it should be noted that 8 of the 10 brake cans are 30/30 cans, which means they fail ON due to a mechanical spring pack. Loose air pressure, and the brakes automatically apply. You know all those semi skid marks you always see on the freeway that go to the shoulder? That's where the air line failed under the trailer, and the brakes locked up automatically.

This guy probably deserves to be prosecuted. Especially if there's video of him driving past the escape ramp just above the I70/US6 merge, or witnesses of him rolling smoke from his undercarriage. You can't miss the smell of overheated brakes, and if there are witnesses to that affect, he should be prosecuted.

ETA: I just watched the video of him passing the escape ramp. While he's not rolling smoke from the undercarriage, he drove right past the escape ramp. There is no excuse for causing this crash. He should have rubbed off half the truck on every guard rail he could find. Laid it up on the side. Run it up a bank. Something besides what he did. He probably figured he could ride it out.

I'll wait for the final investigation reports and all the facts presented before I pass final judgement...but I have to say that your assessment strikes me as being very accurate and likely along the lines of what happened in this tragic crash.

Decades ago I drove some large trucks as part of my job at the time, including one with a 40' bed and a 2-speed manual transmission, but I was far from a professional driver and never had a commercial driver's license...so, as you are an experienced professional truck driver let me ask this question.

Given the grade that this truck was coming down what effect do downshifting and engine braking play? Can you downshift and engine brake your way out of a brake failure situation or is the grade simply so steep that the excess speed can't be reduced by these techniques?

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Given the grade that this truck was coming down what effect do downshifting and engine braking play? Can you downshift and engine brake your way out of a brake failure situation or is the grade simply so steep that the excess speed can't be reduced by these techniques?

I’d say sigcrazy7 is all over this but...I understand the big rigs must be downshifted PRIOR to the truck reaching the steep downgrade. You’re not going to be able to work your way down through the transmission once it gets rolling. I scared the shit out of myself when I was hauling 4 horses and coming down off the Rim in Arizona. My truck started accelerating and I was afraid I might lose it. Got it under control, but it was a good lesson for me.

quote:

Originally posted by TMats
I understand the big rigs must be downshifted PRIOR to the truck reaching the steep downgrade.

It would really kinda suck to miss the shift, or burn the clutch up trying to force it. Being in neutral would be orders of magnitude worse.

80,000 pounds is a lot of weight. 80,000 pounds moving fast and being acted on by gravity is a lot of force. I doubt anybody builds trucks with systems to stop in that situation once someone has smoked the brakes instead of using the engine & transmission to control speed. If you’re going to handle that kind of equipment on the open road you need to know what you’re doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Given the grade that this truck was coming down what effect do downshifting and engine braking play? Can you downshift and engine brake your way out of a brake failure situation or is the grade simply so steep that the excess speed can't be reduced by these techniques?

It really is nothing more than energy management. You have a certain amount of kinetic energy of the mass in motion, plus the potential energy of the mass at the top of the grade. You must convert that energy into heat, and then expel it faster than you are converting potential energy into kinetic energy. There are two systems for this: engine brakes and wheel brakes. The engine brakes send the heat up the stacks as well as out the radiator, while the wheel brakes radiate heat from the brake drums.

If you already have a lot of kinetic energy (moving fast), and you are converting potential to kinetic faster than the engine brakes can convert it to heat, then you need your wheel brakes to do that job. If you have already heat loaded your brakes, then you have nothing left, and must look for an external source to take away the energy. The safest external source is an escape ramp. After that, you can drop in a ditch, up a bank, on your side, etc.

In the "old" days, trucks had almost no engine braking. Diesels, by their very nature, have little resistance like gas engines do. This is because they do not have a butterfly valve to restrict the airflow. They always have a full bore air intake. Hence engine brakes, whether of the "Jake" type (value retarders), exhaust type butterfly restrictors, or hydraulic retarders (very rare nowadays). In the days of the two stroke Detroits like the 318 (8v71), trucks came off those hills at 6-8 mph. You could only come down at the speed that your brakes would cool. Runaways were way more common in the past.

My truck has a Cummins ISX with modern brakes. It has over 500 hp of engine braking. I can crest a hill at 80mph while loaded to 80,000lbs, and bring the truck down to speed with nothing but the engine brakes. I no longer need to downshift at the top of the hill because the engine brakes are so crazy powerful. The ISX uses a two-stage Jake style brake coupled with a VGT turbo that work in combination to provide an insane amount of engine braking. The old rule that you can go downhill only has fast as you can go up is a thing of the past with a newer engine.

So if the preceding paragraph is true, why was there a runaway? If the engine brakes were not working or working at lower capacity, many of these guys have no idea how to properly get down a hill. Basically braking no more than three times a minute for 5 seconds per application. If you are braking more than that, you are too fast.

One more thing. Cool brakes can bring an 80,000 pound truck to a stop all by themselves, --once. Even if you fail to gear down at the top, he should be able to get it under control. One caveat. Unadjusted brakes can cause a runaway. However, all big trucks have been required by law to have auto-adjusting slack adjusters since 1996. His trailer may have been a pre '96, and his brakes could have been out of adjustment. That would effectively reduce his braking capacity by half, but smoke would have been pouring from the tractor brakes in that situation.

I'll be interested to hear his side of the story.

Some bonus material:
I once was driving down a steep grade in the Bitterroots descending into Idaho. I was in my '88 with a 3406B Cat, and my engine brakes were non-functional. I was rolling about 15-18mph for about 15 miles, and there were no turnouts. A lot of traffic backed up behind me, and there was nothing I could do but keep traveling at a safe speed. When we finally reached a passing lane, several cars went speeding around me flipping me the bird. The general public are a bunch of assholes if they get behind a slow truck nowadays. They expect to not be delayed... ever. Safety be damned.

Another thing of interest:
The most used ramp in the world, they claim, is US16 near Buffalo, WY. THAT is one serious hill. They have a catchnet system like the nets on old aircraft carriers.

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
When we finally reached a passing lane, several cars went speeding around me flipping me the bird. The general public are a bunch of assholes if they get behind a slow truck nowadays. They expect to not be delayed... ever. Safety be damned.

A large part of the general public are assholes, but an even larger part are just clueless about anyone else’s reality that doesn’t match theirs. Many of them have no clue about how heavy a truck is or the issues that a trucker has to consider that just don’t come up in their Prius. For instance, when is the last time that you passed a car or pickup and they flashed you to let know you were far enough by to safely move back to the lane in front of them? Someone who pays attention sees trucks do it for each other often, but around here at least, the truckers always seem to be gratefully surprised when they get the “clear enough” from a pickup or car.

ETA: On the catchnet stuff, it makes one wonder two things: Why were all the crashes bagged stuff? and What is bentonite gravel and what is it used for? Seen lots of bentonite powder, the well drillers use the heck out of it here. Never have seen bentonite gravel though.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
When we finally reached a passing lane, several cars went speeding around me flipping me the bird. The general public are a bunch of assholes if they get behind a slow truck nowadays. They expect to not be delayed... ever. Safety be damned.

A large part of the general public are assholes, but an even larger part are just clueless about anyone else’s reality that doesn’t match theirs. Many of them have no clue about how heavy a truck is or the issues that a trucker has to consider that just don’t come up in their Prius. For instance, when is the last time that you passed a car or pickup and they flashed you to let know you were far enough by to safely move back to the lane in front of them? Someone who pays attention sees trucks do it for each other often, but around here at least, the truckers always seem to be gratefully surprised when they get the “clear enough” from a pickup or car.

ETA: On the catchnet stuff, it makes one wonder two things: Why were all the crashes bagged stuff? and What is bentonite gravel and what is it used for? Seen lots of bentonite powder, the well drillers use the heck out of it here. Never have seen bentonite gravel though.

Bentonite is just bentonite. No such thing as “gravel.” There’s a large plant in Lovell, WY where it is mined and packaged. That’s probably 75% of the heavy stuff over that mountain.

Could he have engine braked effectively for the 2 miles?

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Given the grade that this truck was coming down what effect do downshifting and engine braking play? Can you downshift and engine brake your way out of a brake failure situation or is the grade simply so steep that the excess speed can't be reduced by these techniques?

sigcrazy7 thanks for your detailed reply and the time you took to put it together! I was aware of some of the physics involved but you framed it in such a way that it really laid out the factors involved in a clear way.

Really interesting input on the effects of brakes that are out of adjustment as well. Years I go I scared myself and my crew while descending down a steep hill towards a major intersection traffic light in light rain in a gas powered GMC with a 40' bed. The brakes had never given the slightest indication that there were any problems but when I lightly tapped the brakes the truck suddenly veered into a left skid taking up both lanes of traffic and was facing almost perpendicular to the direction of travel. I corrected and it reversed its skid perfectly to the right and I continued to skid sideways down the hill taking up both lanes of traffic. I made another correction and got her stopped before the traffic backed up in front of me at the intersection light. Why there was no traffic in the oncoming lane while I skidded down the grade I can only thank God for divine intervention. My crew stared at me but I couldn't tell if their eyes or mouths were wider. I reported the incident to our shop mechanic and he put the truck in the shop and found that one of the dual wheel brakes was slightly out of adjustment.

I have seen numerous runaway truck ramps but had never heard of or seen a Catch Net so thanks for adding that interesting info!

Tell me about the transmissions in these rigs. How many gears? 2-speed transmissions? What kind of gear ratios? Is it conceivable that a fully loaded runaway tractor trailer rig descending down a steep grade with burned out brakes could use engine braking in conjunction with downshifting through the gears to try and control the speed? I would assume that the gears are synchronized but at speed would you even be able to downshift? Or, once you came out of gear and were in Neutral are you more concerned that you might not be able to get it back into a lower gear at speed?

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
Bentonite is just bentonite. No such thing as “gravel.” There’s a large plant in Lovell, WY where it is mined and packaged. That’s probably 75% of the heavy stuff over that mountain

That’s what I thought as I’ve only seen it as powder or drilling mud, which looks a lot like liquified clay, and sure cracks up like clay when dumped on the ground and allowed to dry out.

Makes sense it would be involved in a lot of the problems if it is that high a percentage of the heavy cargo.

Thanks!

sigcrazy7 I've been waiting for you to chime in. Thanks for the input.