SIGforum
Taking Sanctuary in a Church -- Is That a Real Legal Thing?
February 14, 2018, 01:09 AM
SapperSteelTaking Sanctuary in a Church -- Is That a Real Legal Thing?
Recall this thread from a week or so ago:
LINK1I came across this article in today's edition of the Idaho State Journal, a small regional daily newspaper serving SE Idaho:
LINK2quote:
Utah church shields mom from deportation
By Andrew Adams
Facebook
[Go to URL to view photo with this caption] Vicky Chavez was facing deportation and almost boarded a plane to Honduras on Jan. 31. Instead, she made a last-minute decision to fight to stay in the country. She and her two children have taken up residence in the First Unitarian Church in Salt Lake City.
SALT LAKE CITY— A Utah mother who has been seeking sanctuary from deportation in a Unitarian church has broken her silence, saying she is trying to protect her children.
Vicky Chavez was facing deportation and almost boarded a plane to Honduras on Jan. 31. Instead, she made a last-minute decision to fight to stay in the country.
“We were running a risk to go and I chose for the safety of my kids to find help and seek sanctuary,” Chavez said Friday, nine days after she and her two children took up residence in the First Unitarian Church in Salt Lake City.
“I miss being able to be with my family and staying with my mom,” Chavez said through a translator. “I miss that the most.”
Chavez said she fled Honduras to escape the violence she faced at home, seeking asylum status in the U.S.
Amy Dominguez, of Unidad Inmigrante, said Chavez has gone through the process legally, but the system failed her.
“She came into the United States, she was processed by ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) and released by ICE to pursue an asylum case,” Dominguez said. “We are here at this point years later and $15,000 down, paying legal fees and things like that, and things have still not changed. For people to say, ‘Well why doesn’t she do things the “legal way” — she is doing things the legal way. This is just the way that the immigration system is broken.”
A Utah mother of two who is facing deportation was about to board a plane to her native Honduras when she changed her mind and went to a church instead.
Chavez said she was uncertain of the legal status of the case but was hopeful she might have an update soon — potentially as early as next week.
“I have faith we’ll get out soon,” Chavez said. “I will be staying here however long that takes.
These are two current news examples of churches claiming on-site "sanctuary" for illegals. Is this a real legal thing? Or is it just bullshit?
Thanks,
Sap
February 14, 2018, 01:59 AM
medic451Bullshit, warrant or probable cause is enough to enter a church or any other place and make an arrest. Its purely a traditional thing to avoid making arrests to those seeking sanctuary for non violent crimes in a church.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
- John Wayne in "The Shootist" February 14, 2018, 02:15 AM
flashguySince most churches (Mormon Temples excepted) are public places, I don't think even warrants would be needed.
flashguy
Texan by choice, not accident of birth February 14, 2018, 02:22 AM
gatopescadoIs sanctuary a real legal position? Not really, we could make a harboring case out of it. Lawyers can make it sound like a real thing though. One of those cases where depending on where it is filed say Kalifornistan vs. Texas would determine the outcome.
Also you don't really want to be kicking in the doors of a church just to get an illegal. In the long run it would probably do more bad for the department as far, as publicity goes, than just trying to get them later when they leave the building for whatever reason.
As a Fed LEO (down here in South Texas), if I'm chasing illegal aliens and I see that they go into a school or church, I can follow them and arrest them.
Now say it's a quiet day and there is nothing going on out in the brush as far as tracking and chasing illegals, the powers that be don't want you to just go by the local school or church and start doing immigration checks on all the folks inside. It would look bad also.
February 14, 2018, 04:04 AM
downtownvSame Crap has been going on in Highland Park, NJ, shielding an Indonesian Christian.
He was here for 20 years and never bothered to to the legal thing. Former Goldman Sachs, Obama serving governor went to greet him on one of his first days in office. Murphy intend. to set up a sanctuary state.
The illegal has a whole family and the kids are in high schools/college on the taxpayers dime let alone their healthcare.
His excuse was he didn't have the money to do thing legally...
I Didn't have the money to buy a Ferrari, but maybe I can just take it?
February 14, 2018, 05:15 AM
mark123quote:
Originally posted by flashguy:
Since most churches (Mormon Temples excepted) are public places, I don't think even warrants would be needed.
flashguy
What's that? Churches are private property.
February 14, 2018, 05:17 AM
PalmIt is an ICE policy to not pursue enforcement actions in "sensitive" locations, including churches. There is no legal prohibition on them doing so.
https://www.ice.gov/ero/enforcement/sensitive-locFebruary 14, 2018, 05:51 AM
10-7 leoquote:
Originally posted by mark123:
quote:
Originally posted by flashguy:
Since most churches (Mormon Temples excepted) are public places, I don't think even warrants would be needed.
flashguy
What's that? Churches are private property.
Private property that's open to the public. Same as a grocery store, walmart, etc.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
If you beat your swords into plowshares, you will become farmers for those who didn't!
Political Correctness is fascism pretending to be Manners-George Carlin February 14, 2018, 06:18 AM
mark123quote:
Originally posted by 10-7 leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mark123:
quote:
Originally posted by flashguy:
Since most churches (Mormon Temples excepted) are public places, I don't think even warrants would be needed.
flashguy
What's that? Churches are private property.
Private property that's open to the public. Same as a grocery store, walmart, etc.
I don't want to assume you're saying something you're not. Does the police not have to have a warrant to search a church or arrest someone in a church? As far as I know any person or group can be barred or asked to leave any church for any or no reason.
February 14, 2018, 08:53 AM
SgtGoldquote:
Originally posted by 10-7 leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mark123:
quote:
Originally posted by flashguy:
Since most churches (Mormon Temples excepted) are public places, I don't think even warrants would be needed.
flashguy
What's that? Churches are private property.
Private property that's open to the public. Same as a grocery store, walmart, etc.
Mass tried this angle and got shot down. Churches are not places of public accommodation AFAIK.
http://harvardjol.com/2016/11/...ublic-accommodation/
_____________________________
'I'm pretty fly for a white guy'.
February 14, 2018, 08:56 AM
sigmonkeyWaco.
"the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! February 14, 2018, 08:56 AM
CromNO. It is not a legal principle.
Churches may PROVIDE sanctuary to anyone....but it has no legal standing.
"Crom is strong! If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, 'What is the riddle of steel?' If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me."
February 14, 2018, 09:20 AM
rscalzoThe days of churches being tax free operations should end. They are more political organizations these days.
February 14, 2018, 09:42 AM
rock185I don't recall ever chasing a criminal into a church, but certainly would have. Can you imagine, if "sanctuary" for criminals in churches in the United States were a real legal thing, how crowded churches would be. There'd be no room for parishioners on Sunday.
Now from what I've seen reported on network news, we allow it to be real thing regarding mosques in the lands where we are in conflict in the Middle East.....
NRA Life
February 14, 2018, 09:46 AM
TMatsquote:
“She came into the United States, she was processed by ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) and released by ICE to pursue an asylum case,” Dominguez said. “We are here at this point years later and $15,000 down, paying legal fees and things like that, and things have still not changed. For people to say, ‘Well why doesn’t she do things the “legal way” — she is doing things the legal way. This is just the way that the immigration system is broken.”
“The immigration system is broken” and “Immigration reform” are just euphemisms for, “If they make it here, they ought to get to stay. They should get all the social welfare benefits that Congress can dream up, and oh yeah, they should become citizens and get to vote.”
Bullshit. The situation the country faces with this woman is the result of catch-and-release and allowing an illegal to stay so long that they take on names like “Vicky;” even though she can’t speak a lick of English.
Without looking it up, I think the “right of church sanctuary” goes back to Magna Carta times when the Church and the Crown were linked. Representatives of the King respected the overarching authority of the Church and the sanctuary it offered. By the time of Thomas Beckett—no so much.
_______________________________________________________
despite them
February 14, 2018, 09:50 AM
rusbroThis guy thinks so:
February 14, 2018, 10:26 AM
10-7 leoquote:
Originally posted by mark123:
quote:
Originally posted by 10-7 leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mark123:
quote:
Originally posted by flashguy:
Since most churches (Mormon Temples excepted) are public places, I don't think even warrants would be needed.
flashguy
What's that? Churches are private property.
Private property that's open to the public. Same as a grocery store, walmart, etc.
I don't want to assume you're saying something you're not. Does the police not have to have a warrant to search a church or arrest someone in a church? As far as I know any person or group can be barred or asked to leave any church for any or no reason.
If I am in hot pursuit of a criminal, I can go anywhere he goes to apprehend him.
If I have knowledge that an arrest warrant exists for a person, and I have reason to believe that person is on any property or in any building in my jurisdiction, I can look for that person.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
If you beat your swords into plowshares, you will become farmers for those who didn't!
Political Correctness is fascism pretending to be Manners-George Carlin February 14, 2018, 10:32 AM
Yellow Jacketquote:
Originally posted by rscalzo:
The days of churches being tax free operations should end. They are more political organizations these days.
Maybe some, not all.
God's mercy: NOT getting what we deserve!
God's grace: Getting what we DON'T deserve!
"If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal
Bob
P239 40 S&W
Endowment NRA
Viet Nam '69-'70 February 14, 2018, 01:39 PM
AKSuperDuallyquote:
Originally posted by 10-7 leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mark123:
quote:
Originally posted by flashguy:
Since most churches (Mormon Temples excepted) are public places, I don't think even warrants would be needed.
flashguy
What's that? Churches are private property.
Private property that's open to the public. Same as a grocery store, walmart, etc.
Each of those places referenced have business hours. Many, if not most churches have business hours for the public and times when they are not open to the public.
Perhaps there are state laws applicable here also...I do not know.
Churches are private property though, and just like walmart can ask someone to leave and have them banned from a property...so can churches.
My church supports LEO's 100%, and as long as my church wasn't expected to pay for damages involved in getting a suspect, I'm all for the LEO's getting their suspect. But then...we let our local LEO's come and train in our building...and we're building a first responder room for them to have a safe place to take a break. Working on armoring up the walls and installing secureity systems and everything. Plus...there'll always be lots of doughnuts and coffee.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The trouble with our Liberal friends...is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." Ronald Reagan, 1964
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. It doesn't matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon will just take a shit on the board, strut around knocking over all the pieces and act like it won.. and in some cases it will insult you at the same time." DevlDogs55, 2014
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.rikrlandvs.com February 14, 2018, 02:09 PM
Scott in NCalPerhaps we are thinking about this the wrong . If a illegal immigrant goes into a church and won't come out, is it all that different from being in a cell they can't come out of ? An upside being that church and it members pay the cost, not us taxpayer. I think it is a fine idea, they get to stay in the US so long as they never leave the sanctuary of their host church.