Went out last night for delicious birthday dinner. Food was excellent, service good, and my drink was made pretty darn strong. Finished off with desert and port for the table on the house.
As we were having coffee and waiting for desert, somehow I screwed it all up. Asked my grandpa (Holocaust survivor) about what he thought about the rise of anti-Semitism in France/Europe. He said yep tons of it, and pivioted to our president and how he's possibly the next Hitler.
Shocked he'd say such a thing, I asked him why he thought that. He went on to talk about Kristallnacht and our family that didn't make it out. Asked what that had to do with our president. Said it started with the same rhetoric going on now from our president and nationalist themes.
I reminded him of the whole checks and balances thing and that it was impossible, no matter who the president was for our country to devolve into that. Went on to mention Tree of Life and Charlottesville. I reminded him that he was talking about two sick individuals not our president. He somehow thinks PDJT is encouraging people to do hateful things by his rhetoric and actions. I asked him if his actions included having a Jewish daughter, SIL, and grandchildren and suggested he was a really shitty anti-Semite between his relationship with Bibi, moving Embassy, family, and pro-Israel policies. He responded with something from CNN.
My grandfather was a literal rocket scientist and areo space engineer, and he's fooled by WaPo and NYT.
We went on to taxes and he said tax cut was BS and that he and people he knew got no benefit from it. I said grandpa, the people you are talking about are rich and their income comes from different sources than mine. Tax cuts plus employer bonuses and fully funding my HSA as a result of cuts meant a 10% raise to me in after tax dollars. I also told him how much that helped me and that I bought a new car as well as started new home improvements based on higher disposable income.
My quite literal genius grandfather has been duped it makes me sad.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
Awkward. You stepped in it. Sometimes the most gifted of us also have the most persuasive demons to deal with. Who knows what the man went through all those years ago. It's easy to get turned around when you are facing life altering circumstances.
Sorry it wrecked your evening. Too bad, but sometimes it's the people we love most that hurt us the most. It's sad when that happens.
Your grandfather sounds like an uncle of mine. If it’s on the NBC nightly news or in the NYT, it’s gospel.
|I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not |
never a good topic to discuss. I would have stopped that discussion and started a more pleasant one like maybe a hobby he enjoyed. People losing their reason is pretty common.
I feel for you. I have a very smart sister who is a math professor at a university. Unfortunately, when it comes to politics her brain turns to liberal mush. She willingly suspends all reason and logic to believe in absolute nonsense and yes, Trump is very bad, racist and worse than a hundred Hitlers.
No one's life, liberty or property is safe while the legislature is in session.- Mark Twain
He is old. Cut him some slack. He is entitled to his opinions. Remember religion and politcs.
The Holocaust did damage to a lot of people and his generation is afraid of anything that smacks of Nationalism. Let it go. If you want to be reminded of such things view The Pawnbroker with Rod Steiger.
Oh belated happy Birthday.
|Slayer of Agapanthus|
Proof that being a victim does not grant wisdom. As posted above, seek mercy, cut slack, and pray for him. David Horowitz, a Jew, analyzed why secular Jews are inclined to collectivism/socialism. It would be unusual if a person of his generation were not a collectivist. Enjoy his good qualities as a person.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye". The Little Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupery, pilot and author, lost on mission, July 1944, Med Theatre.
|wishing we |
Am living a similar sad situation.
My older brother and I were very close.
He was as conservative as I am.
He hates Donald Trump. We had months long email battles about the Russia investigation. I couldn't believe he was arguing talking point nonsense straight from MSNBC and CNN. Our arguments got very intense.
We hardly talk at all now.
With loved ones, it may take slow revelation rather than one decisive conversation.
As old, experienced and accomplished as he is, you may need to let him have your way as further experience may let him see his own views more critically.
Take small steps to put him before a mirror.
Awkward moments can lead to real conversation.
You're a bright person too. Maybe a few well thought out questions could help in the long run.
Help him find just a little self-realization at a time.
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
I too have some family members who, by all other accounts, are very smart and successful, yet hold political beliefs disseminated by CNN.
"Alcohol: the cause and solution to all of life's problems" --Homer J. Simpson
It didn't ruin the evening. Apps ---> Desert were delicious and I don't mind having political discussions, but I'd prefer to not do it on my birthday dinner in public.
It just drives me nuts when people invoke Hitler when talking about PDJT. I get it if you don't like the guy, but to call him the next coming of Hitler is beyond hyperbole.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
|Too old to run, |
too mean to quit!
No converting such people to your view/opinion.
Best to just not engage in such discussions at all.
Many close family relationships have been ruined by getting into such arguments.
There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour)
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. "
"America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville
The Idaho Elk Hunter
|Frangas non Flectes|
First, happy birthday, man.
Second, I can empathize with ya there. I’ve grabbed a few hot wires, politically speaking, in friends and family over the last several years who then told me how they really felt in strong detail. These were people I mistook for Trump fans or at least conservatives before he was on the scene. Had a few interesting and heated exchanges with my father-in-law about politics the last few years. Some where I was the one who grabbed the live wire some where it was he, going on silly rants about Trump. Now I just endeavor to avoid political talk altogether unless I know for sure that person is a Trump supporter. When my FIL starts a rant, I wait until there’s an opening and redirect the conversation. Just so much more peaceful that way.
|Lawyers, Guns |
Like others, I feel for you because it had a downer effect on an otherwise perfect evening.
But looking at the bigger picture, I'm wondering what can be done, if anything. I have also seen this happen. I was good friends with a 90 year-old woman, now deceased, who similarly came under the spell of MSNBC and CNN. It's really sad to see someone fall into the propaganda vortex of the leftist media. Trump Derangement Syndrome seems to have no cure.
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown
"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
|Frangas non Flectes|
Truth. There’s no point arguing with them, they’re never going to change their minds anyway.
Not that I agree with Granddad here completely, but understand, what he says aint impossible.
What the "average" American does not realize is how weak our Bill of Rights have become. All of them. Limits on the 1st, the 4th is been gutted, 5th is holding on, 6th is constantly under attack, 8th is a joke, 9th does not exist any more nor does the 10th. As everyone had fought hard for the 2nd, all the others were attacked and weakened.
The Government has the power, currently to name an American citizen an "enemy combatant", strip you of all your civil rights and send you off to a military holding facility, or worse, should you be out of the country, target you with a drone. The Military Commissions Act of 2009 affords you certain rights, but you are still being tried by a Military tribunal, not the civil courts. It's a joke. The Supreme Court actually held that certain elements of our Bill of Rights is not "absolute".
Our Government has, on multiple occasions, has suspended Habeas Corpus over the years.
So, dont get mad at Granddad, he gets it, nothing is "impossible".
|Yeah, that M14 video guy...|
I had a similar situation. Had a great dinner with friends this weekend and they suck up everything from CNN and MSDNC. They don't like it when I point out intentional misreporting. I told him what he thinks about The President is what he's been told to think about The President.
I texted him yesterday about the misreporting of ABC using Knob Creek machine-gun footage and he told me not to text politics to him anymore. He said let's keep politics to when we're face to face. Honestly, I'm done talking about politics with him. I can prove it to them, but I can't believe it for them (stolen from Sigmonkey).
I avoid eating in the company cafeteria because I'm one of the only people that questions the motives of the media. Everyone wants to take pot-shots at President Trump and I come in and stop their ass with an objective view.
Owner, TonyBen, LLC, Type-01 FFL
www.tonybenm14.com (Site under construction).
|Go ahead punk, make my day|
sad but true. the rules of the road have changed and they haven't caught on -- and pretty much don't care to.
the comparisons to Hitler crack me up. because when someone 'goes there' it shows how ignorant they are about how Hitler's rise to power actually occurred.
they may be familiar with the results of Naziism -- but not the rise. its a convenient mantra - but no factual comparison.
as for your grandfather - just enjoy the time you have with him.
Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
We were not talking about the erosion of personal freedoms at all. We were talking about the possibility of a president becoming a tyrant. It's pretty much impossible given term limits and checks & balances. The framers of our constitution were pretty smart about writing that document. The other two branches can handle a tyrannical president. Either by removing the president or ruling executive orders illegal.
I blame more your profession for the erosion of our personal freedoms and weakening of our constitional rights. It's the lawyers. Both in Congress and behind the bench that are responsible for that. Not to mention the faceless ones that Congress has seeded their power to in the executive branch that are effectively writing laws from administrative positions.
Trust me Trump is not going to be a leader for more than five more years, so you do not have to worry about him becoming a tyrant or opening up concentration camps. It's not going to happen, so don't you fret.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
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