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quote:
Originally posted by Perception:
.... the line that bans certain substances but not others is completely arbitrary and silly.

Seriously ?
One of the most effective drugs for endurance sports is a drug that stimulates the body to produce more red blood cells. There was a rash of young cyclists dying in their sleep because their blood got so thick it was blocking their capillaries.
I would call that a "real danger" and "negative".


"Crom is strong! If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, 'What is the riddle of steel?' If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me."
 
Posts: 6641 | Registered: September 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
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They've gone beyond that. Computer gaming is now considered a "sport", complete with big audiences and big money.

quote:
Originally posted by oldbill123:
Robotics. Only a matter of time until a sprinter with robotic legs appears. Transgender is already cheating.
 
Posts: 21240 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Leave the gun.
Take the cannoli.
posted Hide Post
An otherwise interesting thread is devolving into craziness about engines, AI, and computer gaming Roll Eyes
 
Posts: 6634 | Location: New England | Registered: January 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Perception
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Crom:
quote:
Originally posted by Perception:
.... the line that bans certain substances but not others is completely arbitrary and silly.

Seriously ?
One of the most effective drugs for endurance sports is a drug that stimulates the body to produce more red blood cells. There was a rash of young cyclists dying in their sleep because their blood got so thick it was blocking their capillaries.
I would call that a "real danger" and "negative".


And there are plenty of perfectly harmless substances on the ban lists for any given sport as well. Each athlete should be able to draw their own line.




"The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford, "it is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them. They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards."
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard, then the wrong lizard might get in."
 
Posts: 3509 | Location: Two blocks from the Center of the Universe | Registered: December 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Leave the gun.
Take the cannoli.
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Perception:
And there are plenty of perfectly harmless substances on the ban lists for any given sport as well. Each athlete should be able to draw their own line.


D1 teams allow their student atheletes whatever suppliments they want as long as it comes from the athletic department. The AD assures it’s purity. Quite often when an athelete gets popped he’ll claim that’s impossible, he took nothing banned, etc. And quite often it’s true, however, the source of the supplement has not been authorized and is contaminated. GNC had their commercial pulled from the Super Bowl last year because they sold products containing synephrine and DHEA. Both are on the list for banned substances in the NFL and has cost players suspensions because they decided to go shopping alone. Innocent but still costly. Supplements are not regulated and no one knows what’s in these products. Labeling means nothing.
 
Posts: 6634 | Location: New England | Registered: January 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiff_P239:
As such, each athlete should have to succeed solely as a result of their natural talent, not who can cheat the best.


Isn't this circular?

If the rules didn't ban doping, it wouldn't be cheating to dope. QED.

The question is really, why should doping be illegal? Are sports better without doping?

I agree with Timdogg6. The main argument against doping in my view is to discourage doping by children and younger athletes who may do themselves harm by doping, only to do better in what is not going to be a career in pro sports.

If it weren't for that, I'd probably allow doping in pro sports, and even high level amateur sports.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 53117 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Perception:

You could probably live for a long time on a diet of Slim Jims and powdered sugar,


I've made it to 56 . . . but the blow is probably going to get me.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 53117 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hitler's army ran on meth. As long as only short term results are needed....let the use anything
 
Posts: 1397 | Registered: November 07, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You're going to feel
a little pressure...
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Supposedly, there was a survey done with High School athletes:

They asked them: "If there was a drug that would guarantee that you would win every competition for your entire High School career, but you would drop dead, after 4 years, would you take it?"

Something like 90% said "Yes".

Anecdotal and unconfirmed, but it has the ring of truth.

Youth believes they are immortal and invincible.
Young athletes, doubly so.

Keep it away from the kids.

Bruce






"The designer of the gun had clearly not been instructed to beat about the bush. 'Make it evil,' he'd been told. 'Make it totally clear that this gun has a right end and a wrong end. Make it totally clear to anyone standing at the wrong end that things are going badly for them. If that means sticking all sort of spikes and prongs and blackened bits all over it then so be it. This is not a gun for hanging over the fireplace or sticking in the umbrella stand, it is a gun for going out and making people miserable with." -Douglas Adams

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Posts: 4245 | Location: AK-49 | Registered: October 06, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jack of All Trades,
Master of Nothing
Picture of 2000Z-71
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
As for level fields, how many young archers have parents with the money (or inclination) to spend $40+(!) for one arrow, much less to buy the best bows and other gear? We can argue whether most competitors would ever need the best gear to reach their maximum potential, but level fields? Hardly.

As far as how many have parents with the means to buy the best equipment, a lot.

Keep in mind I am talking about national level tournaments like Vegas, USA Archery Indoor Nationals and USA Archery JOAD National Target. At this year's JOAD Outdoor Target Nationals there was approx. 800 competitors, this is "youth archery" under 20 years old. No, not all of them had, "The best bows", but if one walked the lines in the upper age divisions, almost all of them are shooting high quality equipment.

Our daughter at JOAD Outdoor Nationals for example. She had both her primary and her backup bows, PSE Perform-X 3D - $1699.00ea. list, a dozen Carbon Express Nano Pro RZ arrow shafts - $389.00 list, a dozen tool steel points - $159.00 list, primary and backup Scott Halo releases - $199.99ea. list, plus a few hundred dollars in other things such as nocks, fletching, quiver, jersey etc. It adds up in the neighborhood of $4k - $5k.

The equipment costs don't freak me out as much. They've been bought over time, are used for multiple tournaments, coaching sessions and practice. Like others, our daughter also has staff shooter support and substantial discounts on equipment. But the cost to travel to Raleigh, NC to be at Nationals for me, my wife and my daughter with airfare, hotel, rental car and meals was probably $3,500 and we were one family of 800. So if a family is going to support their kid being competitive on a national level, equipment costs are a lot less than travel costs when one considers that it is 2 national championships and 4 USAT tournaments to travel to every year.

At JOAD Nationals this year, in the first qualifying round Cooper French shot a 352/360. At this level, every single point counts. Cooper was the highest qualifier at 1394 out of 1440, second place as a 1393. So yes, the competitive archers are going to use the best equipment that they have the means to acquire.

There's a lot of pressure on these kids to perform; competition to make the US National Team, staff shooter agreements, minimum qualifying scores for competitive teams, coaches and parents. I for one do not want to see kids turning to medication to try and gain an advantage.

So what does all this rambling mean? There's a lot of kids out there with families that have the means to support them and their gear. Do they all have the best? No, but most of them who are serious about it do. When you have first place in qualifying at a national event decided by a single point, having the best equipment available makes a difference.




My daughter can deflate your daughter's soccer ball.
 
Posts: 11749 | Location: Eagle River, AK | Registered: September 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for staying with us and continuing to post. You are appreciated and will be remembered here.
 
Posts: 4006 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: August 16, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by 2000Z-71:
As far as how many have parents with the means to buy the best equipment, a lot.


Thanks for helping make my point.

Out of a total US population of well over 300 million, 800 is hardly a “lot.” According to what I could find, 800 is only slightly more than the number of students in the average-sized American high school, and there are over 35,000 secondary schools in the country.

Your daughter is very fortunate to have parents who are willing to make the sacrifices in time, effort, and money to support her activities. There are countless young people who don’t have that advantage. The culture of the US has changed in almost every way since I was in high school, and that includes expectations and overall wealth. But to cite my own experience, the Army base where my father was stationed when I was in high school had a program for young shooters.

One year the group (we weren’t really much of a team) was given the opportunity to go to Camp Perry. I was more fortunate than most shooters because I had my father’s old shooting coat; I also had a few dollars spending money. Everything else, though, was supplied: The Army supplied the guns, the ammunition, spotting scopes and stands, the (bus) transportation, and through some program barracks and mess hall-like food and lodging were also provided. If most of the program hadn’t been free, there would have been no way for me to have participated. My family couldn’t have afforded to buy me the ammunition for my weekly training and practice sessions, much less a basic rifle and sights.

Yes, I understand that not all of the 800 archery competitors had top of the line equipment, but the fact that some of them did demonstrates that there are advantages to having it. The “it’s not the arrow but the Indian” ignores the obvious fact that a certain level of arrow quality is necessary for any Indian, regardless of how skilled, to be successful. Regardless of the levels of the 800 competitors, I cannot imagine that any one of them used the type of bow I and my classmates used in my high school archery class.




6.4/93.6

“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.”
— Plato
 
Posts: 47365 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I had similar thought about testosterone replacement therapy. Prescribed by a Dr. for a medical condition. Unlike illicit steroids that jack your T levels many time more than naturally possible, testosterone replacement just takes the back up to the level they were when you were in your 20s. Safe and for a 40-something definitely performance "enhancing." I guess it may not apply to young athletes...unless your T is 1 point lower than average so you get a prescription to "fix" that.

"Cheating" is only not following the rules. If they change the rules it isn't cheating. Seems like a case by case basis, some banned substances are pretty silly, others very dangerous.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

Be harder to kill: https://preparefit.ck.page
 
Posts: 5043 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There are gray areas at the edge of any human construct. But if a substance really has only beneficial effects, it is called "nutrition" or "a vitamin" or "a supplement". I don't think there is any "perfectly harmless" item on the banned list for competition. Things like caffeine, ibuprofen, and tylenol; are not banned, even though there might be some slightly stronger variations that are banned.

Als, I don't think the "level playing field" issue is particularly relevant. We all know that no playing field is really level. The goal is just to insure that it does not become too heavily sloped. This probably ventures into the psychology of game theory, but if games become too biased for any reason, people refuse to play and spectators lose interest.


"Crom is strong! If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, 'What is the riddle of steel?' If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me."
 
Posts: 6641 | Registered: September 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
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Let's say a major sport decided to allow it's athletes to use whatever PEDs they wanted (lets discount the legal implications of this for the moment.) Would that fact make you want to avoid watching/supporing the sport? Or if it improved the level / excitement of the play, would you be more inclined to watch it)?
 
Posts: 21240 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Jack of All Trades,
Master of Nothing
Picture of 2000Z-71
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by 2000Z-71:
As far as how many have parents with the means to buy the best equipment, a lot.


Thanks for helping make my point.

Out of a total US population of well over 300 million, 800 is hardly a “lot.” According to what I could find, 800 is only slightly more than the number of students in the average-sized American high school, and there are over 35,000 secondary schools in the country.

I think we're both kind of making each others points. Yes, archery is not one of the more popular sports. But I was using one single national tournament as an example. Yes, Nationals does attract some of the most talented archers from around the country. But you can also walk the line at a state tournament in AZ and seen a whole lot more kids with top end equipment.

And to think, archery is one of the cheaper youth sports now days. We have spent a lot supporting our daughter but it pales in comparison with what our neighbors have spent with their son who plays two separate travel leagues for baseball. But that leads off into a different discussion about the price of youth athletics now.

My original point is a lot of parents have the money to support their kid in whatever sport they compete in. There's a lot of pressure on kids now to perform. I don't want to see doping viewed as acceptable behavior in a sport. I don't coach my team, my students or my daughter with a win at all costs attitude. For me there are life lessons to be learned from competition, sportsmanship, how to win, how to lose, importance of work ethic and discipline. If doping were to be seen as acceptable, all those lessons become secondary to winning being everything.




My daughter can deflate your daughter's soccer ball.
 
Posts: 11749 | Location: Eagle River, AK | Registered: September 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Better Than I Deserve!
Picture of LBTRS
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Kind of an odd question...

If it were allowed you would have to use performance enhancing drugs to be competitive. Does anything think that we should make it so you have to take drugs if you want to compete in sports?

Sports are supposed to be about you and how hard you have worked and your ability to compete. Allowing performance enhancing drugs would make it a competition about who can come up with the best performance cocktail.


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