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Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
The log only notes commands, not a transcript of discussions.

We may have discussed this in the previous thread, but wouldn't there be a voyage data recorder with audio of the bridge conversations?

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
The Boatswains Mate of the Watch took over to execute a helm order. Why this became necessary, we can’t say. That is a verbal command from whoever has the conn, usually the OOD, to the helsman at the wheel, to turn, change speed, etc. “Right standard rudder!” Helm replies, “Right standard rudder, aye aye, sir!” Or “All ahead one third,” which is acknowledged and repeated back by the lee helmsman who has the engine controls. These helm commands are noted in the log by the Quartermaster who is keeping the log, at the time. Maybe there was a discussion going on, uncertainty, such that the helmsman did not respond. 4 minutes is a long time. The atmosphere on the bridge of a well run ship ordinarily precludes such confusion. If the OOD has “lost it” I guess anything can happen. That young man is in a heap of trouble now, and not many good explanations. The log only notes commands, not a transcript of discussions.

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Originally posted by JALLEN:

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:

Let's get back on track with the discussion. "these orders were not carried out." That just shouted at me. How can an order given in the Navy under those circumstances not be carried out. And isn't there someone plotting courses in the bridge? I think so; I'm a bilge rat in the engineroom so I don't get to see that.

I can't believe the order was simply dropped given the Order-repeat back order protocol. If the senior enlisted took over because the order was wrong, how come it took 4 minutes for him to execute?

And I don't mind the court martials. it's right and proper.

Let’s not confuse the orders.

The Captain has standing orders, updated daily for the OOD, while the Captain is off the bridge. I call these Captain’s Night Orders. They are written, kept in a folder or notebook, and initialed by each OOD at the start of his watch. They will cover things like notifying the Captain under stated conditions, what expectations are for the next hours, steaming conditions for the night, coirse, speed, any manuevers, hazards to navigation. The Captain wants to be notified if any ship is going to come within stated distances. The OOD must contact him, or her, and report. I heard of a JOOD making the call, and both officers getting a royal reaming because it is for the OOD to call, not the JOOD. Sometimes the Captain is down in the wardroom watching the movie. No matter. You must track him down and give him the report.

I can’t wait to find out why this was not done on Fitzgerald.

The Boatswains Mate of the Watch took over to execute a helm order. Why this became necessary, we can’t say. That is a verbal command from whoever has the conn, usually the OOD, to the helsman at the wheel, to turn, change speed, etc. “Right standard rudder!” Helm replies, “Right standard rudder, aye aye, sir!” Or “All ahead one third,” which is acknowledged and repeated back by the lee helmsman who has the engine controls. These helm commands are noted in the log by the Quartermaster who is keeping the log, at the time. Maybe there was a discussion going on, uncertainty, such that the helmsman did not respond. 4 minutes is a long time. The atmosphere on the bridge of a well run ship ordinarily precludes such confusion. If the OOD has “lost it” I guess anything can happen. That young man is in a heap of trouble now, and not many good explanations. The log only notes commands, not a transcript of discussions.

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:

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Originally posted by JALLEN:

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Originally posted by Rey HRH:

Let's get back on track with the discussion. "these orders were not carried out." That just shouted at me. How can an order given in the Navy under those circumstances not be carried out. And isn't there someone plotting courses in the bridge? I think so; I'm a bilge rat in the engineroom so I don't get to see that.

I can't believe the order was simply dropped given the Order-repeat back order protocol. If the senior enlisted took over because the order was wrong, how come it took 4 minutes for him to execute?

And I don't mind the court martials. it's right and proper.

Let’s not confuse the orders.

The Captain has standing orders, updated daily for the OOD, while the Captain is off the bridge. I call these Captain’s Night Orders. They are written, kept in a folder or notebook, and initialed by each OOD at the start of his watch. They will cover things like notifying the Captain under stated conditions, what expectations are for the next hours, steaming conditions for the night, coirse, speed, any manuevers, hazards to navigation. The Captain wants to be notified if any ship is going to come within stated distances. The OOD must contact him, or her, and report. I heard of a JOOD making the call, and both officers getting a royal reaming because it is for the OOD to call, not the JOOD. Sometimes the Captain is down in the wardroom watching the movie. No matter. You must track him down and give him the report.

I can’t wait to find out why this was not done on Fitzgerald.

The Boatswains Mate of the Watch took over to execute a helm order. Why this became necessary, we can’t say. That is a verbal command from whoever has the conn, usually the OOD, to the helsman at the wheel, to turn, change speed, etc. “Right standard rudder!” Helm replies, “Right standard rudder, aye aye, sir!” Or “All ahead one third,” which is acknowledged and repeated back by the lee helmsman who has the engine controls. These helm commands are noted in the log by the Quartermaster who is keeping the log, at the time. Maybe there was a discussion going on, uncertainty, such that the helmsman did not respond. 4 minutes is a long time. The atmosphere on the bridge of a well run ship ordinarily precludes such confusion. If the OOD has “lost it” I guess anything can happen. That young man is in a heap of trouble now, and not many good explanations. The log only notes commands, not a transcript of discussions.

I wasn't focused on the standing orders. I was talking about the orders covered by your last paragraph. I've not stand watch on the bridge, only in the engineroom. I forget what the officer in charge of the engineroom is called, probably Engineering officer of the Watch. In any case, for every evolution, emergency included, there's a procedure that the EOW is supposed to physically turn to even though he has it memorized. I understand there may be more variables piloting a ship, but in this case, wouldn't there have been the "right" procedure to follow and not depend on the whim of the OOD - slow down and cross behind them or speed up and cross ahead of them?

And when the OOD gives a course order regarding this collission threat, isn't someone like a quartermaster plotting or assessing whether that course order will actually resolve the issue?

The OOD rescinding and issuing an opposite order sounds like he was the root cause. It sounds like he froze because it doesn't sound like he confirmed the last order was belayed and the new order was acknowledged.

Nothing that was posted shows anything about the steering wheel guy except apparently he didn't comply with the order to increase to full speed and full port. Which goes back to the OOD because bells should sound when you do a speed change. (I'm assuming there are still people in the engineroom actually controlling the speed.) The OOD should have noticed either the helmsman didn't repeat his order or the speed control bells didn't ring or both.

And then, what was the senior petty officer of the watch doing? It took him 4 minutes to do anything. It doesn't look like he's going to be making chief anytime soon. Was this a case of a watch team made up of newly qualified people? Then that goes to whoever made up the roster of the watch teams.

Lastly, what happened to "Sound the collision alarm!?" I know that's a regular and quite often frequent drill that we do where it was a contest in the engineroom how fast we can stop the gears to zero so that we can go full astern. When I did it, I would cheat and take out the play in opening the astern valve. We usually had word ahead of time if they were going to run those types of drills.

And again as far as the court martials, hell yes, heads should roll. You crash a ship and take it out of commission, kill sailors, and expect to be made admiral? I did know a guy who crashed his boat into a part of a bridge in Portland, grounded an aircraft carrier on a sandbar, ruined an aircraft carrier's propeller fresh out of drydock and still made admiral. It's suppose to be if you ran out of fresh water and had to be given some by another ship, it would make your head hang down in shame.

And, JALLEN, I'm asking you these questions because I'm assuming you've run a bridge watch before, yes?