The charges seem appropriate to me. Killing your crew while at sea while not on a war time cruise is unacceptable.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Poacher:
Another article stated they were going after two LTs and a LTJG as well.

Article 32 results will certainly be interesting.

On Fitzgerald, the juniors were on watch as OOD and JOOD or Ops while the Captain snoozed in his bunk. Why they did not notify him is to me the biggest mystery in that event. They are directly responsible for the events.

Concur, if you are on duty, you are responsible.

Frankly I thought the charges would have come down much sooner.

Wonder what they are charging the Chief with and for??

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by 45 Cal:
Will not bring the sailors back but might get some officers to take their job seriously.
I served on a ship with an asshole captain.
He never got anyone kill but he did a couple million dollars to the St Paul and the Coral Sea by waving off the tugs and mikes to show junior officers how it was done to dock a heavy cruiser unassisted He rammed the carrier,took off the elevator,took off fire control and five inch mount on the St Paul
This bad seaman ship just did not crop up,hell this was in 1960.

Captain Crunch!

I wonder when a commanding officer will receive orders and report back, “unable.”

Between the demands of “training, the more or less constant turnover of manning, the mix of ahhhh, life style choices, career paths and aspirations, political correctness and testorsterone levels, mixed with operational necessities, it is a wonder any of these guys can cast off lines and leave port.

He was transferred shortly,we were flag and adm Griffin I heard was not happy.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
Frankly I thought the charges would have come down much sooner.

Wonder what they are charging the Chief with and for??

Probably gun-decking certain quals

Edit: Also, one charge of dereliction of duty was preferred and is pending referral to a forum for a Chief Petty Officer.

quote:

Originally posted by Poacher:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Poacher:
Another article stated they were going after two LTs and a LTJG as well.

Article 32 results will certainly be interesting.

On Fitzgerald, the juniors were on watch as OOD and JOOD or Ops while the Captain snoozed in his bunk. Why they did not notify him is to me the biggest mystery in that event. They are directly responsible for the events.

Concur, if you are on duty, you are responsible.

Because they were so in-experienced, they had NO IDEA they were about to get run over by a freighter, so how could they alert the Captain before it happened.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by Poacher:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Poacher:
Another article stated they were going after two LTs and a LTJG as well.

Article 32 results will certainly be interesting.

On Fitzgerald, the juniors were on watch as OOD and JOOD or Ops while the Captain snoozed in his bunk. Why they did not notify him is to me the biggest mystery in that event. They are directly responsible for the events.

Concur, if you are on duty, you are responsible.

Because they were so in-experienced, they had NO IDEA they were about to get run over by a freighter, so how could they alert the Captain before it happened.

So you claim they were out there sailing along in the dark, fat, dumb and happy, when all of a sudden they get whanged by this huge freighter?

I guess that is not completely impossible, but I think the track and what we now know suggests that they were aware of a situation developing, and made some choices that turned out to be ineffective and ended up disastrous.

The report that was released a few months ago showed a different track than what we here had come to assume. I do not now recall the details. Maybe we can retrieve those instead of getting into wild eyed ignorant theories.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by 45 Cal:. . .I wonder when a commanding officer will receive orders and report back, “unable.”

Between the demands of “training, the more or less constant turnover of manning, the mix of ahhhh, life style choices, career paths and aspirations, political correctness and testorsterone levels, mixed with operational necessities, it is a wonder any of these guys can cast off lines and leave port.

^^^^^This!

I wonder why an officer would accept command of a ship given the modern-day minefield of social engineering, snowflake millennial feelings and politics-over-warrior ethos in which that officer must command.

Failed to train his crew? Doubtful. More likely he was not allowed to get that training done. The time he needed to get that routine training done was instead directed by higher authorities to be spent on such truly essential training as trans-acceptance seminars and sexual harassment avoidance training.

It may well be that hanging these COs out to dry is a cover your ass move by higher authority, not an attempt to get justice for the dead.

Where does this stop? What about the officer in charge of the destroyer squadron? Assuming he signed off on these commands is he at risk or being charged as well?

What happens when one of the skippers comes up with info showing he communicated up the line that the current structure was unworkable?

I'm glad of these charges. I wish they could be stronger. The captain of a vessel like these wields enormous power. With that power comes a ton of responsibility. Throw the book at them and let them prove they did everything they could and were ignored about serious issues.

My guess is you will find that they were more worried about not rocking the boat than they wee with reporting anything that could shorten their careers.

quote:

Originally posted by SapperSteel:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 45 Cal:. . .I wonder when a commanding officer will receive orders and report back, “unable.”

Between the demands of “training, the more or less constant turnover of manning, the mix of ahhhh, life style choices, career paths and aspirations, political correctness and testorsterone levels, mixed with operational necessities, it is a wonder any of these guys can cast off lines and leave port.

^^^^^This!

I wonder why an officer would accept command of a ship given the modern-day minefield of social engineering, snowflake millennial feelings and politics-over-warrior ethos in which that officer must command.

Failed to train his crew? Doubtful. More likely he was not allowed to get that training done. The time he needed to get that routine training done was instead directed by higher authorities to be spent on such truly essential training as trans-acceptance seminars and sexual harassment avoidance training.

Hanging these COs out to dry is a cover your ass move by higher authority, not an attempt to get justice for the dead.

To a point yes. However, the CO is responsible for these guys doing 80-100 hour work weeks, dicking around with watch schedules and prioritizing certain OTJ training.
The proof in the pudding will be, does the Navy alter/change how they train their SWO's. If not, than do they change the ops tempo and deployment schedules? If not, then they haven't learned and we're gonna have more of the same.

Here is a description paraphrasing the report on the Fitzgerald’s situation.

quote:

In a report released on 1 November[6] the Navy describes Fitzgerald's course in the half-hour prior to the collision as running 190T (nearly due south), with a speed of 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph). At about 01:17 Fitzgerald's OOD (Officer of the Deck, responsible for the ship's course and maneuvering) misjudged the course of ACX Crystal. At 01:25 the OOD noticed ACX Crystal getting closer, and ordered a turn to 240T (that is, to turn to the right and pass behind ACX Crystal), but then rescinded the order. Instead he "ordered an increase to full speed and a rapid turn to the left (port)" (to pass ahead of ACX Crystal), but "these orders were not carried out." At 01:29 the "Bosun Mate of the Watch, a more senior supervisor on the bridge, took over the helm and executed the orders."[7] The Navy has not said what those orders were, nor what transpired on the bridge following the collision at 01:30. Among other failings the Navy says "physical look out duties" were not performed on the starboard (right) side, where ACX Crystal and two other ships were approaching.

This suggests that they knew, and made mistakes. My question is why not call the Captain and let him sort it out? That is ALWAYS the right thing to do in the situation, and probably required by Captain’s Night Orders or whatever they call them, standing orders.

Two captains hung out to dry is normal Navy procedure, but on-the-job training should not be part of a captain's duty in running a billion-dollar warship.
Those standing watch received insufficient training, obviously, perhaps because higher command was to busy enjoying the booze, women and money from the Fat Leonard scandal. That's the rot at the top that set the stage for these collisions.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Here is a description paraphrasing the report on the Fitzgerald’s situation.

quote:

In a report released on 1 November[6] the Navy describes Fitzgerald's course in the half-hour prior to the collision as running 190T (nearly due south), with a speed of 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph). At about 01:17 Fitzgerald's OOD (Officer of the Deck, responsible for the ship's course and maneuvering) misjudged the course of ACX Crystal. At 01:25 the OOD noticed ACX Crystal getting closer, and ordered a turn to 240T (that is, to turn to the right and pass behind ACX Crystal), but then rescinded the order. Instead he "ordered an increase to full speed and a rapid turn to the left (port)" (to pass ahead of ACX Crystal), but "these orders were not carried out." At 01:29 the "Bosun Mate of the Watch, a more senior supervisor on the bridge, took over the helm and executed the orders."[7] The Navy has not said what those orders were, nor what transpired on the bridge following the collision at 01:30. Among other failings the Navy says "physical look out duties" were not performed on the starboard (right) side, where ACX Crystal and two other ships were approaching.

This suggests that they knew, and made mistakes. My question is why not call the Captain and let him sort it out? That is ALWAYS the right thing to do in the situation, and probably required by Captain’s Night Orders or whatever they call them, standing orders.

All they knew was there was a freighter in close proximity. They were so inept at their duties, that they most likely would've also gotten run over had it been broad daylight with 10 miles of visibility. They were not in a situation. THEY, put themselves in the situation with all or their erratic maneuvering. The freighter, I'm almost sure had been plotting them, and was on a path to go around them with plenty of room to spare, until they turned directly in front of it at the last minute. 1:29 hours.

Do you see any charges filed against the freighter crew? Because, I haven't.

As far as waking the Captain. They never knew the severity of the situation they were in to begin with. IF they went to wake him up at 1:17, they would have to go to his stateroom, wake him up, he'd have to get dressed, make it all of the way to the bridge, become instantly alert, take a few minutes to review the situation at hand and then make a decision......those 13 minutes would have been up 3 minutes earlier. 13 minutes is NOT a very long time for all of those actions to occur.

I've crossed paths with freighters in the middle of the night in the middle of the ocean. We called each other on the VHF, verified each others course and heading, and agreed to maintain or change course and speed and passed within 1/2 a mile.......many times......all it would've taken, was for them to be professional and HAIL the ACX Crystal on channel 16. OR look at their AIS received broadcast of ACX Crystals course, heading, and location. Or look out of the window.

quote:

Originally posted by mark_a:
Where does this stop? What about the officer in charge of the destroyer squadron? Assuming he signed off on these commands is he at risk or being charged as well?

What happens when one of the skippers comes up with info showing he communicated up the line that the current structure was unworkable?

I'm glad of these charges. I wish they could be stronger. The captain of a vessel like these wields enormous power. With that power comes a ton of responsibility. Throw the book at them and let them prove they did everything they could and were ignored about serious issues.

My guess is you will find that they were more worried about not rocking the boat than they wee with reporting anything that could shorten their careers.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Here is a description paraphrasing the report on the Fitzgerald’s situation.

quote:

In a report released on 1 November[6] the Navy describes Fitzgerald's course in the half-hour prior to the collision as running 190T (nearly due south), with a speed of 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph). At about 01:17 Fitzgerald's OOD (Officer of the Deck, responsible for the ship's course and maneuvering) misjudged the course of ACX Crystal. At 01:25 the OOD noticed ACX Crystal getting closer, and ordered a turn to 240T (that is, to turn to the right and pass behind ACX Crystal), but then rescinded the order. Instead he "ordered an increase to full speed and a rapid turn to the left (port)" (to pass ahead of ACX Crystal), but "these orders were not carried out." At 01:29 the "Bosun Mate of the Watch, a more senior supervisor on the bridge, took over the helm and executed the orders."[7] The Navy has not said what those orders were, nor what transpired on the bridge following the collision at 01:30. Among other failings the Navy says "physical look out duties" were not performed on the starboard (right) side, where ACX Crystal and two other ships were approaching.

This suggests that they knew, and made mistakes. My question is why not call the Captain and let him sort it out? That is ALWAYS the right thing to do in the situation, and probably required by Captain’s Night Orders or whatever they call them, standing orders.

All they knew was there was a freighter in close proximity. They were so inept at their duties, that they most likely would've also gotten run over had it been broad daylight with 10 miles of visibility. THEY, put themselves in the situation with all or their erratic maneuvering. The freighter, I'm almost sure had been plotting them, and was on a path to go around them with plenty of room, until they turned directly in front of it at the last minute.

As far as waking the Captain. They never knew the severity of the situation they were in to begin with. IF they went to wake him up at 1:17, they would have to go to his stateroom, wake him up, he'd have to get dressed, make it all of the way to the bridge, become instantly alert, take a few minutes to review the situation at hand and then make a decision......those 13 minutes would have been up 3 minutes earlier. 13 minutes is NOT a very long time for all of those actions to occur.

You really have no idea, do you.

The Captains cabin is very close to the bridge. On the Fitzgerald, the Captain’s cabin took the brunt of the hit. On some ships, there is an underway bunk for the Captain’s use. The Captain orders that he be notified in certain circumstances, commonly traffic coming within a stated distance, say, 10,000 yards, 5 miles, expects to be notified and will be really, really unhappy if he finds out his orders were not obeyed.

Moreover, modern steel hulled ships have telephones, unlike the old wooden sailing ships.

CIC plots a contact with a CPA of 8,000 yards at such and so bearing, time in 15 minutes. The OOD evaluates the info, satisfies himself that the info is plausible, figures out what if anything the rules of the road or Captain’s orders require, then picks up the phone. The Captain answers, the OOD says, “Captain, we have a contact, appears to be merchant ships CPA of 8,000 yards in 14:30, recommend we maintain course and speed.” Or, “recommend coming left 15 degrees to course 075...” or whatever the situation calls for.

The Captain need not dress. Bathrobe or better. I bet these female Captains come to the bridge without make up or even taking the curlers out.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

As far as waking the Captain. They never knew the severity of the situation they were in to begin with. IF they went to wake him up at 1:17, they would have to go to his stateroom, wake him up, he'd have to get dressed, make it all of the way to the bridge, become instantly alert, take a few minutes to review the situation at hand and then make a decision......those 13 minutes would have been up 3 minutes earlier. 13 minutes is NOT a very long time for all of those actions to occur.

Jimmy, you don't know nothing about how a Navy ship works.

Zero. Zilch. Nada.

My kids know more than you do after watching the movie Battleship.



Then again, you are a shrimp boat cap'n expert - so just stick to that and Yachting.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Here is a description paraphrasing the report on the Fitzgerald’s situation.

quote:

In a report released on 1 November[6] the Navy describes Fitzgerald's course in the half-hour prior to the collision as running 190T (nearly due south), with a speed of 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph). At about 01:17 Fitzgerald's OOD (Officer of the Deck, responsible for the ship's course and maneuvering) misjudged the course of ACX Crystal. At 01:25 the OOD noticed ACX Crystal getting closer, and ordered a turn to 240T (that is, to turn to the right and pass behind ACX Crystal), but then rescinded the order. Instead he "ordered an increase to full speed and a rapid turn to the left (port)" (to pass ahead of ACX Crystal), but "these orders were not carried out." At 01:29 the "Bosun Mate of the Watch, a more senior supervisor on the bridge, took over the helm and executed the orders."[7] The Navy has not said what those orders were, nor what transpired on the bridge following the collision at 01:30. Among other failings the Navy says "physical look out duties" were not performed on the starboard (right) side, where ACX Crystal and two other ships were approaching.

This suggests that they knew, and made mistakes. My question is why not call the Captain and let him sort it out? That is ALWAYS the right thing to do in the situation, and probably required by Captain’s Night Orders or whatever they call them, standing orders.

All they knew was there was a freighter in close proximity. They were so inept at their duties, that they most likely would've also gotten run over had it been broad daylight with 10 miles of visibility. THEY, put themselves in the situation with all or their erratic maneuvering. The freighter, I'm almost sure had been plotting them, and was on a path to go around them with plenty of room, until they turned directly in front of it at the last minute.

As far as waking the Captain. They never knew the severity of the situation they were in to begin with. IF they went to wake him up at 1:17, they would have to go to his stateroom, wake him up, he'd have to get dressed, make it all of the way to the bridge, become instantly alert, take a few minutes to review the situation at hand and then make a decision......those 13 minutes would have been up 3 minutes earlier. 13 minutes is NOT a very long time for all of those actions to occur.

You really have no idea, do you.

The Captains cabin is very close to the bridge. On the Fitzgerald, the Captain’s cabin took the brunt of the hit. On some ships, there is an underway bunk for the Captain’s use. The Captain orders that he be notified in certain circumstances, commonly traffic coming within a stated distance, say, 10,000 yards, 5 miles, expects to be notified and will be really, really unhappy if he finds out his orders were not obeyed.

Moreover, modern steel hulled ships have telephones, unlike the old wooden sailing ships.

CIC plots a contact with a CPA of 8,000 yards at such and so bearing, time in 15 minutes. The OOD evaluates the info, satisfies himself that the info is plausible, figures out what if anything the rules of the road or Captain’s orders require, then picks up the phone. The Captain answers, the OOD says, “Captain, we have a contact, appears to be merchant ships CPA of 8,000 yards in 14:30, recommend we maintain course and speed.” Or, “recommend coming left 15 degrees to course 075...” or whatever the situation calls for.

The Captain need not dress. Bathrobe or better. I bet these female Captains come to the bridge without make up or even taking the curlers out.

I really have no idea how a Navy ship operates. I'm a professional mariner that only knows How any ship SHOULD NAVIGATE. AND, quite frankly I don't really care how a Navy ship operates, so long as I steer clear of them.

You have NO IDEA what the Captains orders were for waking him, if there were any orders at all. Judging by what we know now, and as horribly as the crew and ship were managed, there most likely weren't any orders.

The crew couldn't determine a CPA of the Crystal as they couldn't even determine how to avoid a collision with it. At 1:17 the OOD misjudged the direction of the Crystal.

There is no way that any Captain could be awoken from a deep sleep an visualize what the person is telling them until they are fully awake and alert. Had you been woken up as a Captain with a situation, at least once in your life, you would know that. The response time varies from person to person. Not to mention the information the OOD would have given the Captain was incorrect anyways, because he couldn't even figure out the heading of the Crystal to begin with or that they were even in a major situation. So what good would the information have been.

Not to mention if you review the accident, there were 3 ships within short distance abeam of each other, all heading in the same relative direction, and all 3 ships earlier altered course to go around the warship. How are you going to describe all of that to the Captain so he can visualize it. You can't. He'd have to look at the radar and out the window himself in order to figure out what all 3 ships are doing, when he doesn't know what they have been doing for the past 30 minutes+, which would require getting dressed and going up to the bridge, and then taking the time to track the ships to figure out heading, distance, and speed (or looking at AIS).


The crew was so beyond untrained that they couldn't tell you if the other ship had a CPA of 8000 feet or 8,000 miles or zero feet obviously. "at 1:17 the OOD misjudged the course of the ACX Crystal" How on earth do you do that with the sea time of an OOD with any kind of electronics newer than 1980. There is no plausible explanation for misjudging the heading of a ship with that kind of experience.

You really have NO IDEA. If you go to the previous thread of the Fitzgerald, you're touting how the freighter must have been on autopilot and because of that nobody must have been on watch. If a freighter isn't on autopilot, where the crystal was navigating, the only explanation would be that the autopilot is broken. Freighters (and almost all) commercial ships will be on autopilot in the ocean 99.99% of the time. Hand steering them is a pain in the rear to try to keep a heading and even worse at night and you'd end up doing 120 miles to go 100 because of all of the zig zagging. Autopilot is MUCH more accurate at maintaining a straight heading. The only time most all types of commercial ships hand steer, is in close quarters like in a ship's channel entering a port.

You had a small boat, many decades ago, and traveled in a small area. You were in the Navy, what? 50 years ago? You might as well have been on a wooden sailing ship. For all intensive purposes, you're an arm chair captain. A LOT has changed since then, every aspect just about.

Meanwhile, I just got off of a brand new, state of the art, $10 million 93' yacht a few hours ago with the new twin 1950HP Cat diesels burning 170 gallons per hour at 20 knots and ran it 255 NM between yesterday and today and do 10,000-15,000 NM at sea, on average, every year for the past 15 years, running 150 different yachts per year. And, 36 years of total boating experience continuously. I'm one of only 2 Yacht Captains that the builder, that has been building yachts for over 50 years and is one of the top builders, trusts to run it, due to how complicated the systems are and how advanced it's new electronics and systems are. The entire boat is glass bridge. Every pump, system, switch, etc. is on the computer system. Even lowering or raising the blinds are in the new computer system.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
I wonder if they added this charge in the hopes of getting a plea deal.

Or as a political maneuver to satisfy the blood-thirsty. Even if the negligent homicide charges don’t stick, the government can always say, “Hey, we tried to hammer them,” and the blame falls on the judge or jury.

My gut feeling is this will play out for the Navy much the same way the My Lai massacre trial did for the Army.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
For all intensive purposes,...

The correct turn of phrase is, "For all intents and purposes,..."

Just a friendly visit from the Grammar Nazi.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

Jimmy, you don't know nothing about how a Navy ship works.

Zero. Zilch. Nada.

My kids know more than you do after watching the movie Battleship.

Then again, you are a shrimp boat cap'n expert - so just stick to that and Yachting.

RhinoDude, you are way off base here. You are nothing but an ex Navy officer, and you are arguing with a maven whose expertise on everything is well known. You need to show him some respect.

When will you learn?

That goes for you too, JAllen. You Navy officers don't know anything about this stuff, we have an actual rowboat captain to explain it all to us.