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Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sig209:
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by Sig209:
can of worms getting opened....

i think we can agree that gouging to make an obscene profit during a legitimate life / death emergency is morally wrong


------------------


No we cannot agree. Economic reality is neither moral or immoral. It is akin to saying that gravity is "morally wrong." (Akin, not exactly the same - don't take the analogy too far.)

Chellim1 is right, there is no such thing as gouging. If the market will pay a price, that IS the market price.


figured the lawyer would show up at some point to school us on morals

------------------------------------------------------------


There are several lawyers taking part in this thread.

What does that even mean? Is that a dig about lawyers not having morals?




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 53122 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Report This Post
safe & sound
Picture of a1abdj
posted Hide Post
quote:
How about this? Ever brick and mortar location that “gouged” during an emergency was taxed at double their previous rate for the next two years? Hey, they got theirs now it’s payback time.


I'm on board!

Let's start by taxing all non brick and mortar businesses selling within the state quadruple taxes to make up for the tax dollars lost by them not operating brick and mortar locations?

Since we're missing the property taxes, sales taxes, employment taxes, utility taxes, fuel taxes, etc, they (and more importantly their customers) need to start paying their fair share.

I'll sell my generators for price X every single day of the year so long as Amazon.com isn't legally allowed to undercut my prices AND the taxes we are missing are tacked on top of that.

Deal?


________________________



www.zykansafe.com
 
Posts: 15717 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: September 22, 2003Report This Post
Not really from Vienna
Picture of arfmel
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sig209:
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by Sig209:
can of worms getting opened....

i think we can agree that gouging to make an obscene profit during a legitimate life / death emergency is morally wrong


------------------


No we cannot agree. Economic reality is neither moral or immoral. It is akin to saying that gravity is "morally wrong." (Akin, not exactly the same - don't take the analogy too far.)

Chellim1 is right, there is no such thing as gouging. If the market will pay a price, that IS the market price.


figured the lawyer would show up at some point to school us on morals

------------------------------------------------------------


Supply and demand. The most elementary concept in economics, and the basis of capitalism.
 
Posts: 26905 | Location: Jerkwater, Texas | Registered: January 30, 2007Report This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I think you already won that one. Didn’t Congress pass the bill forcing sales tax to be collected?

This thread isn’t about taxes. You cherry picked one idea, a tiny one, out of my rant.

I will participate if you start a tax thread though. Lol
 
Posts: 7473 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 18, 2005Report This Post
Green grass and
high tides
Picture of old rugged cross
posted Hide Post
There is quite a difference between a perceived emergency and a true life and death crisis.

One, the seller raises the price to what ever he thinks he can get. Regardless of what people can afford to pay. Not a huge fan to the extreme. Consumers do not forget. But the market and peoples conscious is what prevails.


The other he is over run or killed if he resist's by gun toting desperate folks willing to do anything for things they need to survive.

We have yet to get to scenario #2. But it could happen.



"Practice like you want to play in the game"
 
Posts: 19186 | Registered: September 21, 2005Report This Post
Honky Lips
Picture of FenderBender
posted Hide Post
Price and supply controls are the single stupidest thing anyone with the power to enforce them can do.


If you choose to disagree with me on this point, you're flatly wrong. Additionally I challenge you to show a single example of it working.
 
Posts: 8146 | Registered: July 24, 2009Report This Post
Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
I’m going to disagree with you guys. Obviously there are exceptions to any rule. Ie the guy who rented a truck bought generators traveled halfway across country to sell a product. That kind of enterprise should not be covered under the “gouging” law in my mind. Stores and suppliers that existed before the event and will be there after should be limited from jacking up prices in a declared emergency. If their cost to get the product increases they can increase their price but the intent of gouging law ideas remain.

Simple facts here. We don’t live in a pure anything. We don’t live in a pure representative republic, a pure democracy, a pure capitalist society, a pure socialist society, etc. We have elements of all the above and more. Spouting pure capitalist ideas like that is the only economic force at play in America is silly. Name any element of our society and you find lines that are blurred between economic ideals. It’s just reality of life in America.

This discussion of jacking up prices in the midst of emergencies tends to center around certain items. Gas, water, food, hardware. What if your utilities decided to play the same game? Oh you want electric power to fix your shit? Ok, the electric rates just tripled. Water? Same thing. Except quadruple. They don’t do that because the optics black eye they suffered would come back in spades at the next public utilities meetings.

How about this? Ever brick and mortar location that “gouged” during an emergency was taxed at double their previous rate for the next two years? Hey, they got theirs now it’s payback time.

Part of the social contract in my world is that you don’t kick people while they are down.

Obviously you guys disagree. Which is fine, but don’t spout capatilism as the end all mantra. We don’t live in a pure capitalist society. There are limits and they are excercised in all elements of our life every day.

To me the solution is a combination of limiting brick and mortars to certain price constraints during declared emergencies. Allow the use of limits on product sales to minimize profiteering. And lastly, make it a fineable event for people to clear out product and then sell that product during this time frame. We don’t allow people to sell wholesale product out of their garage within the proper permitting and/or licensing so why allow it during natural disasters?

The idea is a solid one. The implementation, as usual, is shit. Human nature in disasters come in two distinct flavors. It brings out the very best in many and the absolute worst in others.

You think it’s great because that is what defines America? Well go try and sell a P239 mag for a hundred bucks on the classifieds here. Gouging is gouging. Just ‘cause it’s legal doesn’t make it right. Fuck the lawyer talk bs.


Where does it stop? If we can control prices when it is "gouging" why not at some other times? Say, during a time of inflation. (This was tried, by the way.) Why not because people need bread, so bread can only be sold for fifty cents a loaf? Next, it wouldn't be just bread, but also baloney, because you need to put something in the sandwich.

Sure, we don't have pure capitalism. (But close-ish, for the most part.) Every step toward less capitalism is one we shouldn't take. Screwing with markets is almost never the right approach.

Here's another similar line of reasoning:

We don't have a pure "right to keep an bear arms" regime. We can't get any new machine guns, and artillery is right out. So, why not ban ARs? I mean, we don't have a pure 2d amendment right anyway. And ARs are very scary, and not really necessary. So let's restrict them, for the children.

Wouldn't you argue that is just a step to banning any semi-autos? And then to banning some other class, and then . . .

Incremental steps to a bad result may not seem so obviously a problem, but they are.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 53122 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Report This Post
quarter MOA visionary
Picture of smschulz
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
Is that a dig about lawyers not having morals?

Nah. Razz

Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, an honest lawyer and an old drunk are walking down the street together when they simultaneously spot a hundred dollar bill.
Who gets it?
The old drunk, of course, the other three are fantasy creatures.



What's the difference between a good lawyer and a bad lawyer?
A bad lawyer can let a case drag out for several years.
A good lawyer can make it last even longer.
 
Posts: 22907 | Location: Houston, TX | Registered: June 11, 2006Report This Post
Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by arfmel:

Supply and demand. The most elementary concept in economics, and the basis of capitalism.


Just a pesky economic reality. Quit your nitpicking.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 53122 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Report This Post
Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by smschulz:
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
Is that a dig about lawyers not having morals?

Nah. Razz

Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, an honest lawyer and an old drunk are walking down the street together when they simultaneously spot a hundred dollar bill.
Who gets it?
The old drunk, of course, the other three are fantasy creatures.



What's the difference between a good lawyer and a bad lawyer?
A bad lawyer can let a case drag out for several years.
A good lawyer can make it last even longer.


I always enjoy the jokes, and I haven't heard that one.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 53122 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Report This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by Sig209:
can of worms getting opened....

i think we can agree that gouging to make an obscene profit during a legitimate life / death emergency is morally wrong


------------------


No we cannot agree. Economic reality is neither moral or immoral. It is akin to saying that gravity is "morally wrong." (Akin, not exactly the same - don't take the analogy too far.)

Chellim1 is right, there is no such thing as gouging. If the market will pay a price, that IS the market price.


Yes, Chellim1 is correct.




 
Posts: 11744 | Location: Western Oklahoma | Registered: June 18, 2008Report This Post
Get Off My Lawn
Picture of oddball
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
Where does it stop? If we can control prices when it is "gouging" why not at some other times?


Nail. On. Head.

First of all, the entity that will control "price gouging" will be the government, not exactly one with a clean track record of any sorts. In Los Angeles, a city with anti-gouging laws, right after the Northridge earthquake, moving companies were charged with "gouging" their customers by approx. 25% over normal pricing. So by this logic, should roofing companies be charged with anti-gouging laws for charging more during rainy season, and less during the summer? Should I be guilty of gouging because I charge a client more for bringing me a project at the last minute? Is it gouging when I pay 10 bucks for a beer at the ballgame, yet at my local bar, it is only $4.00?

To me, the extra price one pays for a generator, a pack of D cell batteries, flashlights, water, etc. is the price of not bothering to prepare. I have a plaque hung in my office with a phrase I have used with "red flag" folks who wanted to hire me (and I turned them down); "Your lack of planning is not my emergency"



"I’m not going to read Time Magazine, I’m not going to read Newsweek, I’m not going to read any of these magazines; I mean, because they have too much to lose by printing the truth"- Bob Dylan, 1965
 
Posts: 16694 | Location: Texas | Registered: May 13, 2003Report This Post
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