Like anything else, unions have their pros and cons.

An older guy I used to work on 737s used to say "Unions make a good mechanic lazy, and a lazy mechanic worthless."

quote:

Originally posted by Ironworker:I retired at 55 years of age with a pretty good pension. We have a healthy defined benefit pension plan.

Is your pension paid by your union or the company you used to work for? If by the company, your defined benefit pension is in jeopardy should the company ever declare bankruptcy. Just ask any ALPA-represented Delta pilot who retired prior to the airline declaring BK in Sept 2005. The retired pilots from Delta no longer receive any retirement payments except through the PBGC (pennies on the dollar).

Just a bit of history for your consideration. Hopefully you'll never find yourself in the same situation.

I run a large union company (mechanical contractor).

Simple facts don’t lie, only 13% of all construction in the United States is done union. We have sadly priced ourselves out of being competitive.

Small example, a plumber costs me roughly $80/hour. That’s the paycheck and benefit package. That doesn’t include all my taxes, small tools, consumables/expendable, safety gear etc.

With things like copper pro-press, pex tubing, pvc and other new connection methods, $80/hour for a plumber is simply too much to pay and be competitive. Non-union shops pay a small fraction of that.

Add to that the silky work rules that get imposed on me...well, you see why union construction so only 13% and falling.

Look at all of the large union construction companies, they all own non-union arms. The writing is on the wall. The union members will be the ones who are left holding an empty bag when it all implodes. It’s sad, but folks don’t want to reverse the trend, so it’s just gonna drive right off the cliff. I’ll do my part to help, but I also know inevitability when I see it.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailhook 84:

quote:

Originally posted by Ironworker:I retired at 55 years of age with a pretty good pension. We have a healthy defined benefit pension plan.

Is your pension paid by your union or the company you used to work for? If by the company, your defined benefit pension is in jeopardy should the company ever declare bankruptcy. Just ask any ALPA-represented Delta pilot who retired prior to the airline declaring BK in Sept 2005. The retired pilots from Delta no longer receive any retirement payments except through the PBGC (pennies on the dollar).

Just a bit of history for your consideration. Hopefully you'll never find yourself in the same situation.

It’s in jeopardy even if the union pays it. When the union goes broke, there’s no more money.

The PBGC knows they can’t bail out all of these pensions. That’s why the feds made the new law that they can reduce benefits to existing retirees. I’m telling you, this is gonna e a HUGE deal when it crumbles and it will be the workers who get hit.

In fairness, if we try to reduce their paycheck and benefits, they’ll strike. So we give them what they want/demand and plan to protect ourselves when for when this all collapses.

I am a union member (teamsters) and in the airline industry. I can tell you without a doubt that in the airline biz it is ESSENTIAL to belong.
I personally am against a 3rd party trying to dictate to a business owner who to run his own business but in my case I wouldn't have a job (in fact no one at my company who does the same thing that I do would) if it were not for the fact that my employee group is organized.

I am in the produciton business (film/video) and I do belong to a union but that said it is only so I can work on union gigs and in union states. AZ is right to work therefore it doe not come up every day.

When it does it can be a royal PIA and you also have union guys working on non union jobs but still have union mentality.

I treat my crews extremely well, better than most in fact but it pisses me off when I hear guys start to cry about "meal penalties" if I don't break them at the exact right time...If it is a union job I get it, I have to play by the rules and keep everyone happy but if is non union please STFU and move that light, we will eat as soon as we finish the shot. Hell, you show me any other industry where crew expects breakfast when the walk in set, a catered lunch and a craft service person running around feeding them snacks every 5 minutes.

Unions also make it a PIA to pay people. Non union is easy, we agree on a day rate, you get paid, if we go into OT then you get paid more. As soon as it becomes a union job then I have timecards, job classifications and union dictated rates (which in some cases are much lower than what I would normally pay so it limits my resources).

quote:

Originally posted by Aquabird:
I too worked in a closed shop...UAW.

Same Union I am currently working for. Was a member of the steel workers local for a couple years out of high school too. Not a fan of either honestly.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailhook 84:

quote:

Originally posted by Ironworker:I retired at 55 years of age with a pretty good pension. We have a healthy defined benefit pension plan.

Is your pension paid by your union or the company you used to work for? If by the company, your defined benefit pension is in jeopardy should the company ever declare bankruptcy. Just ask any ALPA-represented Delta pilot who retired prior to the airline declaring BK in Sept 2005. The retired pilots from Delta no longer receive any retirement payments except through the PBGC (pennies on the dollar).

Just a bit of history for your consideration. Hopefully you'll never find yourself in the same situation.

You make a very good point. I hope it is about as safe as anything else. Will Social Security be there when you retire? How safe is any 401K or retirement plan? I know a bunch of people lost money a few years age during the financial crisis. I guess you take your chances. But for just a high school graduate,I am pretty happy. I still think having a defined benefit pension plan is better then no plan at all. I wonder how many of these guys that don't like Unions have anything better?

first of all, i agree with the op.

i learned this a few weeks ago from a buddy.

he works on the line at the local ford plant.

my buddy got his job because his neighbor (a retired plant worker) put in a word for him at the union.

before my buddy went in for pre-hire paperwork, he pulled him side and in plain 'ol english explained how the system works. you have to be a member and pay your dues to get the job.

to have the "full union support", he told him he should have payroll pull 100/mo out of his pay and earmark it for the union's political pac.

he did this.

within a year, he had a situation with his boss and thought he was going to loose his job. when he arrived at the office, three rather large guys were already there with the boss. before he sat down, the ranking union guy turned to him and said, "john, go back to work, this was all just a misunderstanding" he never heard a peep out of his boss again over that 'misunderstanding'.

if i was working at ford, i'd do the same thing.

it's no different than buying term insurance equal to the value of your yearly wages and benefits.

is that right? no. but it's how the system works.


bob

History has shown me that Unions work for enough people to convince the rest to suffer from them.

quote:

Originally posted by VonFatman:
first of all, i agree with the op.

i learned this a few weeks ago from a buddy.

he works on the line at the local ford plant.

my buddy got his job because his neighbor (a retired plant worker) put in a word for him at the union.

before my buddy went in for pre-hire paperwork, he pulled him side and in plain 'ol english explained how the system works. you have to be a member and pay your dues to get the job.

to have the "full union support", he told him he should have payroll pull 100/mo out of his pay and earmark it for the union's political pac.

he did this.

within a year, he had a situation with his boss and thought he was going to loose his job. when he arrived at the office, three rather large guys were already there with the boss. before he sat down, the ranking union guy turned to him and said, "john, go back to work, this was all just a misunderstanding" he never heard a peep out of his boss again over that 'misunderstanding'.

if i was working at ford, i'd do the same thing.

it's no different than buying term insurance equal to the value of your yearly wages and benefits.

is that right? no. but it's how the system works.


bob

As an aside, that is exactly why Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW....basicalll anyone not the “big 3” only build their plants in nonunion areas.

Large manufacturing doesn’t move to my area because they don’t want to be “organized.” As a large part of our business is Indistrial, I’d sure like to see them move into town, but I know they won’t.

I wish more businesses would shut down when unions come in. I know if I ever invested in my own business I would never, ever have a union dictating terms to me.

NUMMI, New United Motors, in Fremont CA, was jointly owned by GM and Toyota, had a dominant union presence. The plant was not profitable, they told the union to accept pay cuts or they would close the plant. The union refused, "we will show them they can't push us around". They closed the plant, everyone was laid off. Such a union victory.

quote:

Originally posted by VonFatman:

within a year, he had a situation with his boss and thought he was going to loose his job. when he arrived at the office, three rather large guys were already there with the boss. before he sat down, the ranking union guy turned to him and said, "john, go back to work, this was all just a misunderstanding" he never heard a peep out of his boss again over that 'misunderstanding'.

What the fuck. Fuck those guys. What if the boss had a legitimate beef? That's some bullshit.

Where I work, it doesn't work that way. You come do your job, you screw up enough you are gone. Stealing, stealing time, drugs, alcohol you are gone, the company has rule and regulations and you will follow them. The union negotiates your wages and benefits, they also negotiate certain issues that arise in the work place. I will admit, there are a few, very few slackers, and management knows who they are... the union can't protect you anymore like every one thinks...and that's a good thing. I am proud to be a Union member and I work hard every day....

This message has been edited. Last edited by: hvyhawler,

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:
NUMMI, New United Motors, in Fremont CA, was jointly owned by GM and Toyota, had a dominant union presence. The plant was not profitable, they told the union to accept pay cuts or they would close the plant. The union refused, "we will show them they can't push us around". They closed the plant, everyone was laid off. Such a union victory.

Same deal nearby, I worked as a contractor at an OSB plant just to the North that was owned by Louisiana Pacific. 10 years ago the union decided the employees weren't being payed well enough. LP told the union negotiators they were maxed out on costs, but the union convinced the employees LP was bluffing and to strike anyway. 1 week into the strike LP shuttered the place and everyone lost their jobs, including me and my contract work of course...
This is hardly an affluent area, and these guys were well paid to begin with. 120 formerly full time employees, and probably 25 steady work contractors were never to work there again, ever.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
I have no problems with unions

You have the right to unionize

I have the right to let you go

you do not have a right to make me let you work for me

This is my biggest gripe against unions. When employees organize into a union, the employer is forced to negotiate with them. They can't simply say "no thank you, I'm not buying what you're selling" and walk away. But the union is a business, as in the employer. The union can walk away from the table, the employer cannot. I don't like the aspect that the union can tell the employer they have to buy there product. It's as if I bought a Chevy, drove it for a bit and had trouble with it, went to trade it on a Ford but Chevy had the gov't force me to only do business with Chevy. IMO, if one side is free to walk away from the table, both should be.

As far as the 'better trained' employees, I watched an interview with a guy who had started several businesses. He said "If the claim were true that unions had better skilled, better trained, more efficient employees, businesses would be beating down the doors of the unions begging them to come into their shops. But that's not what you see." If unions were forced, in a free and open market, to compete with any Joe Blow off the street, would they succeed? If unions were forced to compete in the labor market, I do believe their behavior would by necessity see drastic changes.

When a Union stops being a "proper leader" of the workforce, and becomes a "governing body" of the owner/entrepreneur company, then it has outlived its purpose and usefulness as a tool for all involved and becomes detrimental.

Yeah, it's a broadbrush.

(one must first understand the intent of the two terms, "proper leader" and "governing body", in the the correct context.)

My opinion on Unions changed some after I saw how non-union sailors were treated compared to those who worked for a shipping union. I work for a shipping union and would frankly be loathed to do otherwise.

My opinion on Union leaders however has not changed. They're still all crooks. Don't even get me started on that.

quote:

Originally posted by qxsoup:
I am a union member (teamsters) and in the airline industry. I can tell you without a doubt that in the airline biz it is ESSENTIAL to belong.
I personally am against a 3rd party trying to dictate to a business owner who to run his own business but in my case I wouldn't have a job (in fact no one at my company who does the same thing that I do would) if it were not for the fact that my employee group is organized.

How can this be?

Would the work go undone by anyone? Would the organization cease to exist?

If there is essential work to be done, someone would do it.