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Told cops where to go for over 29 years… |
I’ll just throw this into the mix... The whole 911/Police dispatch thing is going to work a lot better if you actually tell the 911 person what is going on, if someone has been shot, and then stay on the line to and answer silly questions like what is your address, how many people have been shot, where they are shot at, and stuff like that then follow their directions like coming out and introducing yourself to the nice responding officers (without your gun). The 911 guy/gal will have advised the coppers your are coming out, probably what you are wearing (assuming you answered that stupid question), and try to minimize any chance of misunderstanding you for the bad guy. Calling 911 and saying someone has been shot, then hanging up is pretty much a dick move that is only going to complicate things. Calling 911 and saying you need the police and hanging up also is not going to work the way it does in the movies. We just call back, repeatedly, leave messages and while you will likely get a cop (eventually) they will probably be a little pissed at your game. I think I would be more concerned with a prosecutor or civil attorney questioning me on why I refused to tell 911 what had happened and delayed medical treatment for anyone who had been shot. Last thing I want in that situation is the perception of manipulating the situation or deceiving the responders. Having received these calls, the emotion and adrenaline is pretty evident. What really gets the spidey-sense tingling is the cold, calculated responses some folks are suggesting. But hey, you do you... What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand???  | |||
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| Experienced Slacker |
While I won't disparage buying training, once you get to the point of budgeting hundreds or thousands for it I believe you'd be more wise to put it into a retainer for the best and most overwhelming number of lawyers possible. Seems we all want to know exactly what gun to have, but nobody thinks of having the ideal answer for who to call from the police station. I need to correct this myself, so don't feel bad if you don't have the firm of Jesus, Buddha, and Vishnu attorneys at law on the payroll yet either. | |||
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| Member |
Unless that retainer is refundable, I'd say you'd be even wiser to put it in a mutual fund for your retirement. Think of all the people you've known in your lifetime. How many do you know that have been on trial for a self defense shooting? Yeah, Murphy. Better safe than sorry. Blah, blah, blah. | |||
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| Ammoholic |
Good point about having a good attorney (or multiple) on retainer. However, if you are not sufficiently trained to prevail in the fight, the attorney is of little use. | |||
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| Member |
Having an attorney on retainer-that is paid money ahead of time-is totally not needed. What is needed is that you know attorney(s) that you can call. Find out names at the range, classes, intros from friends, just someone that knows something about self defense and is a local criminal defense attorney. The guy who did your real estate closing is not necessarily who you need. As has been previously mentioned be cooperative with police, but tell them you are having trouble breathing and chest tightness-believe me you will not be lying about that. Depending on your locale, you might spend the next 12 hours or so handcuffed to a hook in a very uncomfortable chair or a cell. Better to be being held for observation at the hospital. Always tell the police where your weapon is; NEVER hand it to them, best if your weapon is located outside your house, thus not giving the police immediate probable cause to search your house. Most SD cases will be initially dealt with by the police and prosecutor based on your local politics, as if you are in NY, Chicago, anywhere in CA or the like you may be in for a rough ride. So remember, you want medical attention, and you will call an attorney; both ASAP. It is also a really good idea to have someone else in your household know who the attorney is, their number, and have them call ASAP. Also have other members of your household not talk to police-you have no control over what they may be asked or how it will be reported. Even in a hospital you may be under guard who may or may not allow you a phone call, or to talk to your family. I spent half of my 30 year career in the Chicago PD as a detective boss and I got a law degree via the GI Bill so I have some idea of whereof I write. When the police arrive: 1. No visible weapon on your person when cops arrive 2. You are shaken up, need medical attention 3. ATTORNEY, RFN 4. Polite,co-operative and silent other than to say, "I thought he was going to kill me"(or my family) 5. To 911, "someone has been shot, need police and medical", "I am out of breath and have a hard time talking"(won't be a lie either, you will be) The Islamic terrorist express: Go directly to Allah, do not pass hell. | |||
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| Member |
Gabe Suarez has zero credibility as a witness in court. Officer Charged with Workers Comp. Fraud to Stand Trial
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| Administrator |
You're only looking at this from one perspective. Whatever you say (as the 911 caller/defendant) is absolutely admissible in court as the statement of a party opponent. Once it's on the record, the prosecutor/plaintiff's attorney is free to spin it however he wants. The less you say, the less that can be used against you. The prosecution has to prove every element of a charge against the defendant, but there are ways that a defendant can make that easier and talking too much is definitely one of them. If you get locked up after a shooting, it's probably not because you're being charged with failure-to-render-aide or something like that. I've never heard of a state that made it a duty to aide the person who just tried to kill you. No, you're being prosecuted for some variation of murder, and that's what the prosecution has to prove. But if you say "I just shot somebody dead!" on 911, it makes it that much easier for the prosecution to pin you on that element of the charge. Also: Just because you meant it one way doesn't mean that's how the jury will see it. | |||
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Sigforum K9 handler |
A lot of you guys should not carry a gun. The mere act of carrying a gun can be construed by a lawyer yada, yada, yada. Boss is correct as usual. I know, I know, complete crazy talk to listen to someone who does this day in and out like he does. Most of you are just best to not carry a gun. It’s the only way to be liability free. All the free advice in the world is great until you get shot by a responding officer because you don't want to create joinder. | |||
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| Told cops where to go for over 29 years… |
Oh, and in all my 26+ years of doing this I’ve never told a homeowner to disarm before the cops arrived, never asked “why” they shot the intruder, or tried to get a “confession” from the caller. It isn’t what we do. What I have done is tell people (who are armed) that they need to do what they believe is necessary to stay safe. I’ve had people ask if they should get their gun, my answer is always the same “If you think you might need it”. I’ve never given anyone “permission” to shoot the bad guy, but I’ve never told them not to either. I can’t speak for all agencies, but we are trained to get information, not give advice or build a case. We aren’t there and when the caller is on their own before the Calvary arrives, they need to decide how to survive the encounter. Information like what is going on and how many bad guys there are determines how many units respond and how fast they go. Info on gunshot wounds determines aid/medic response. Quickest way to raise red flags and bring suspicion on yourself is to not answer those questions or lie and say there is a gun when there isn’t or someone has been shot when there hasn’t thinking it will mean a better/faster response. What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand??? | |||
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| Member |
Read that carefully. Jones is spot on, | |||
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| Administrator |
Boss is not every 911 operator anyone might call in on. He may have training others do not get, and he certainly has life experience and perspective that others do not. In particular, he's a gun owner, not something you can count on every 911 operator to be. A different 911 operator may have a very different perspective on self-defense, firearms, etc. A different 911 operator may have different training or motivations with regard to obtaining information. You probably know of some anti-gun police officers, maybe even some who let their views impinge on their professionalism. Sure, it shouldn't happen, but sometimes it does. The same can be said of 911 operators on a national scale. If one of us calls 911 in Boss's jurisdiction we might be fine. But how about Cook county IL? or Washington D.C.? So it's hard to say "always answer/volunteer information." There is absolutely no guarantee that what you say on a 911 recording will not make it into court. Conversely, there is a very good chance that it will if it can be used against you as a defendant.
The 911 operator isn't the only variable. Just like I don't know what a 911 operator other than Boss is going to say if a caller dials 911 after a shooting, it's hard to say the caller themselves will say. It's a high stress situation. Under stress, some people brag, some blabber, some are really cool cucumbers and can carry on a very logical, even keeled conversation that will not be good grounds for an over-zealous prosecutorial effort. Know which type of stress-talker you (generic you) are and come up with a plan before the adrenaline starts pumping. Maybe talk to a defense lawyer in your local jurisdiction beforehand. I don't know if Boss has seen what happens when someone calls, hangs up, and responding LE have to figure out what just happened, he probably has. But I have seen what happens when 911 audio makes it into court. This is a national (even international) board. We are only sharing our individual perspectives. | |||
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| Member |
Predictable results in this thread. | |||
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| Told cops where to go for over 29 years… |
Hmmmm.... https://www.kiro7.com/news/loc...ry-suspect/942291355 Homeowner totally cooperated with 911 during his frantic call. 911 Call receiver did an excellent job, 35 seconds from call received to event entered for dispatch (“received” is the time the call drops in the Call Receiver’s ear) One minute from time of call received to units dispatched. Four and a half minutes from time of call received to first unit arrival. Doesn’t get any better than that unless the cop happens to be chilling in your neighbors yard. Still, they arrived after it was over (by about 20 seconds). “Just in time” to pronounce, search for other possible suspects, and take the report. At this point it seems legit and my personal opinion is there probably won’t be any charges on the homeowner. Note “He is cooperating” in the investigation as well. As I said in an earlier post, there is a certain expected reaction for someone who survives such an encounter. Cold, callous, and uncooperative is not it. Shitty way to start your day, good way for the bad guy to end his as far as I am concerned. Let’s just say “Well Ventilated” Wish I could share more, what I can say is the Call Receiver collected the necessary info, told caller to do what he needed to do to stay safe, and helped the guy through what will likely be the most traumatic event of his life. Oh, and that Call Receiver has only been doing this job for 4 months. TEXT BOOK example of how to do it. We really are professionals when it comes to our job and not just schleps who answer the phone and relay a message to the guys/gals with guns and badges. What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand??? | |||
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| Told cops where to go for over 29 years… |
Update: “...the homeowner has been cleared and will not face any charges” https://komonews.com/news/loca...ner-shooting-burglarThis message has been edited. Last edited by: 911Boss, What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand??? | |||
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Irksome Whirling Dervish |
The 911 call should, at the inception, convey from you to the operator just the 4 Ws: 1. Who are you? 2. What's going on? 3. Where are you? 4. What do you need? Keep the line open and on speakerphone. The above allows the dispatcher to get the right units rolling and it conveys just the essence. Put you gun away right away if the shooting is over. You don't want to be shot. Expect to be proned out and treated like a possible suspect until it's sorted out. Be factual with the cops and point out evidence so it can be preserved. | |||
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Member |
As a LEO, I've investigated use of deadly force incidents where citizens shot other citizens because they were in fear of their life. Physical evidence can often be interpreted to mean different things. What's said during an interview or interrogation provides needed context and those statements lay the foundation for determining the shooter's state of mind, which in turn may result in an arrest/prosecution or recognition of a legitimate case of self defense. Remember that others (including the person who was shot) may be talking to the police in detail about their perception of the incident. If one who carries the means to use lethal force has taken the time and effort to understand the laws regarding how and when deadly force is recognized as being "reasonable", they'll know when to talk and what to say. Saying little other than, "I was in fear for my life" can be just as damning as saying nothing at all. Every situation is different, but if you really know the law and apply it properly if/when you are forced to act, you can avoid arrest, trial, spending many thousands of dollars in legal fees (even if you win), and of course the consequences of a criminal conviction and/or losing in civil court. Use due diligence and take the time to research who's providing the training you're about to take. I'm not going to address the issue(s) surrounding Gabe Suarez, but I will say that just having been a cop doesn't necessarily mean they are the best qualified to instruct you about the important legal issues or that you'd want them to testify on your behalf if something like this occurred. If you take several classes on the use of deadly force, you may see some slight differences of opinion, but you'll get a more balanced and through understanding of the important legal issues. With that knowledge, as well as obtaining the physical and mental skills to operate firearm(s)competently, you'll be prepared to deal with both the threat and the aftermath in an effective manner. "I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken." | |||
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The guy behind the guy |
I didn't read the entire thread, but I'll offer this. When I was a criminal defense attorney, I would estimate that 90% plus of my clients would not have been convicted of anything if they had simply said, I want my lawyer and called me. So, if actual guilty people would be almost impossible to convict if they would have simply shut up, imagine how difficult it would be to convict an actually innocent self defense case if you just shut up. Be polite, but get your attorney and you'll be fine. | |||
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| Told cops where to go for over 29 years… |
No, it doesn’t. 1. Address- most important piece of info. Everything else is useless if we don’t know where to send help. 2. What’s going on- we get this by the caller answering our questions. What the caller thinks is important is not always what is important. There is specific info we need and things log smoothly when it is in a particular order. Please let the 911 call receiver guide the conversation and just answer the questions. 3. Who you are - we will get to that 4. The 911 call receiver/dispatcher/department SOP will decide “what you need” based on the circumstances and info collected from the call. Caller is in most cases is the least likely to know “what they need” Oh, and speakerphone is about the worse thing you can do given the way the calls sound and are recorded. Two way communication is best, if we can’t hear or understand you it makes things a lot more difficult. Seriously, if you aren’t a criminal and are legitimately calling for help the BEST outcome will be from answering the questions and being honest. And since the tape has been released, I’ll add this- homeowner fired total of 12 rounds. Two medium paced shots, seven quick shots, brief pause then three more. Bad guy didn’t have a gun. I haven’t heard number of hits, just “multiple”. This was my agency, it was on my shift. With a rookie call receiver, once I heard her ask ”Are you armed?” I was listening in on the call. She had been handling primary calls on her own for less than 10 days, she is gonna be a rock star at this job.
Cart before the horse. Personally, I am more concerned about surviving the event than I am about legal strategy in the aftermath. I want to cooperate as much as possible to get the Calvary there as fast as possible. You want to lawyer up after the fact, I have no problem with that. But being an uncooperative caller who thinks that you know better than the 911 folks is a recipe for making a bad situation worse. What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand??? | |||
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| Member |
this x100 -------------------------------- Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
I’m not sure where you worked, but guilty people get convicted every day here after “just shutting up”. Some talk, some don’t. This “never talk to the po-leece” has drawn a somewhat cult following almost like a mystical unicorn, but I get convictions at an even rate on those who tell me to fuck off, and those who don’t. I never object to a deal getting struck for those who cooperate. | |||
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