quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

It might be a legal shoot, but it wasn't a good shoot.

This. It didn’t have to go that way at all. One of our FTO’s likes to say this “if we shot everyone we have legal justification to shoot we’d be stacking up bodies head high every week”.

Wrong line of work for the officer.

The guy shooting did pull the trigger. He blew it and is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life, even if he doesn’t lose whatever he ever makes for the rest of his life in a wrongful death civil suit. However, I can’t help wondering if the individual yelling isn’t at least as culpable for creating a really bad situation and ratcheting the tension through the roof on everyone.

I get that they may not want to go down and cuff them where they were so close to the door into the room they came out of. It would suck to be bent over hooking one of them up when a third person leans around the door jam and lights you up with the rifle they were earlier pointing out the window. I’d think hands straight up, back to the sound of my voice would be a safer and better way, but I don’t know their policies procedures etc. I gotta believe that some de-escalation would have been a heck of a lot better than what happened.

I've caught heat for saying this before, but this is yet another example that bolsters my opinion. Don't shoot until you see a gun.

Perception vs. reality. They killed this man based on perception alone. The reality was that there was zero threat.

I've been in his shoes. I have had the police pointing guns at me. I suspect it will happen again in the future. I want calm, cool, and collected. I don't want confused, jumpy, and afraid of their own shadow.

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
A gun was believed to be in play. The suspect made a move to reach behind his back.

I think that's a pretty sad and low bar to set for taking a life. I know for sure I would run out of fingers and toes counting the times where I believed something to be sure and I was proven wrong by the facts. There wasn't even a cell phone or some other dark object in the victims hand to be confused for a gun just someone shooting a guy on the ground over a hunch.

Legal, but bad shoot. Bad hire. Poor training.

How about the standards anyone else is held to?

1. Means? No gun or any other weapons present.

2. Intent? None expressed by the victim and no sign that there was anyone else involved. The girl was already cuffed. The victim was willing to lay there, the cops made him move. They easily could have waited if help was needed.

4. Imminent danger to themselves others (not caused by the cops themselves)? No.

3. Opportunity? Not really.

Reasonableness? Proportionality? Anything?

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
All of you guys calling the cop a murderer, an assassin, etc, I'd love to hear more. You saw the video. A gun was believed to be in play. The suspect made a move to reach behind his back.

The "gun" was reported as a rifle. Supposedly being pointed out a window. So he might have had the rifle tucked in his boxers? The ones falling off?

I suspect that both officers were hoping to kill someone, and this was their chance. Robocop wannabes. Perhaps two wacko cops as partners, with no one to straighten them out. They psyches build on each other.

If they got off because of personal connections, this is the type of thing that makes people hate the police. One or two bad cops contradicting a thousand good things police do every day.

quote:

Originally posted by c1steve:
I suspect that both officers were hoping to kill someone, and this was their chance. Robocop wannabes. Perhaps two wacko cops as partners, with no one to straighten them out. They psyches build on each other.

Yep. The things that paint a picture for me:

1) The guy talking wasn't the guy shooting.
2) The guy that did the shooting had an ejection port cover with "YOU'RE FUCKED" engraved in it and fired five rounds at the guy like it was nothing.
3) There's a second video from another officer that's longer, and has the confrontation edited out, but includes threats to send in the dogs with the other guys behind the loudmouth joking about which one of them is going to start barking and laughing about it.

You're absolutely right and I suspect it isn't just those two "whacko cops as partners." This isn't squarely on just the shooter. This kinda feels like a glimpse at the cultural attitude at that agency. Maybe not department-wide, but surely at that unit.

I wonder how many shootings those guys have been in, especially Sgt. Simon Says.

Bad tactics.... Bad shoot.... And my Dept would have not allowed the dust cover thing at all, period. What supervisor was inspecting weapons here?
Could there have been others in the room? Sure. But when you have 2 down, move now to cuff. Is there risk involved at that point? Sure. But feel I could have covered the door with an AR while partner officers (most carried double cuff cases) cuffed the two in the hall.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
3) There's a second video from another officer that's longer, and has the confrontation edited out, but includes threats to send in the dogs with the other guys behind the loudmouth joking about which one of them is going to start barking and laughing about it.

I've actually seen cops threaten to send in a dog when they don't actually have a dog. It can work in certain circumstances.

I rank this up here with things I wont do for a cop. Hobble on my knees with my hands up.

Just like I won't remove a firearm from concealment to give it to them - I will stay still and let them remove it.

If they shoot me for staying completely still, hands on my head or in view, so be it.

* Arizona respects the right of all U.S. citizens to carry a concealed handgun with or without a permit, or to carry openly while in this state. An Arizona resident permit can be obtained for the purposes of carrying concealed while in other states that offer recognition or reciprocity.
NRA-ILA

This situation seems escalated from the get go. It is in fact legal to carry a long arm or handgun in Arizona, openly or concealed. Someone at the pool saw a rifle in the window and called it in. The officers may have talked to the caller before proceeding up? I don't know, but even then they have no idea if the caller has an agenda.

I'm sure it took a while to get there, ie. this was not an "active shooting" it was a I saw a weapon call in. 15 or more minutes between call in and on site? Elastic sweat pants to conceal pistol, the guy crossed his legs the right way, wrong way, right way trying to comply, he was rattled....

The call was not a crime in progress. Soon an erection outline seen in your pants could be deadly as you could be about to rape? This is a law abiding citizen not used to dealing with police and police used to dealing with bad actors? Neither understood where the other was coming from. The drunk died.

Is it best to remain spread eagle and limp? The officers may rough you up when they finally come for you but the odds are better you will live? Or your possibly fucked either way?

I know going home to mom and the kids, is high on the priority list. I do wonder what percentage of police would have handled this incident, without managing to kill him.

Would this call be handled as an active shooter in most departments.

quote:

Originally posted by springnr:
I know going home to mom and the kids, is high on the priority list. I do wonder what percentage of police would have handled this incident, without managing to kill him.

Better than 99%, I imagine.

That guy has no business being a police officer. That was murder. Period.

Go ahead and try to tell me that I just don't understand. I understand fully, and that police officer should have been convicted of murder.

That made me sick to my stomach. That was murder pure and simple. That kid barely stood a chance with that moron behind the trigger. The cop seemed completely clueless and just making stuff up as he went. It's insanity that he's not rotting in an Arizona prison right now.

Murder. Fire the police chief as well for allowing this guy to run around and commit murder. Next, full review of everyone on the force to see if his coworkers viewed police work in the same way.

I agree, that was a murder.

The imbecilic mouth-breather that was yelling shares in the blame, here, too, in no small part. He may not deserve jail for his part in this, but he has no business in that job either, and yet it appears as though his confusing idiocy has been been brushed aside entirely.

video is down. anyone have a different link?

EDIT:
nevermind. i had to dig thru some youtube videos. damn...

How about the Fed's getting involved like they do in certain other similar incidents?
Usually there is some federal charge such as violating his civil rights.