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Edge seeking
Sharp blade!
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I've had some inconsistent results using ethanol free fuel. Once I got poor fuel economy on a tank of it in my motorcycle. I wonder or suspect that ethanol free fuels may not be subject to the same requirements to meet specifications as normal pump gas. You may be gambling a little bit more on what you might be getting than with normal pump gas.

I also wonder if the fuel in these tanks may not turn over at the rate of more commonly sold fuels, and could sometimes be stale.

I work on marine engines and saw what the introduction of E10 caused. The problems are most pronounced in multiple carburetor outboard engines. When a 90 HP outboard has 4 carbs, the jets for idle are quite small. Smaller jets are more subject to clogging from jelling that appears more pronounced in ethanol blend fuels. Corrosion is commonly associated with the clogging and jelling, which likely is due to alcohol being miscible with water.

The early problems I observed with introduction of ethanol blend fuels in marine engines, seems to have slowed down some. I would assume as these fuels became common, eventually all of the vessels the fuel was carried in trended towards being drier.

If you are using greater quantities of fuel, cheaper ethanol blend fuel can be successfully used with some care. It may be somewhat dependent on carburetor design. My ski boat has a 351 Ford with a Holley carb, and I haven't had problems running ethanol blend fuel. I do take extra precautions during layup to have part of the system empty of fuel and shoot corrosion preventative spray into the carb bowls.

Seasonally used small engines with lots of small passages and nooks and crannies in the carbs, that use little fuel during the season, are good candidates for fuels such as Tru Fuel. My son is an arborist and he said when they went to buying premixed fuel, their problems went way down, making it way worth it.

Stihl has recommended running on premixed fuels before storage if you use pump gas during the season. I think this is good advise.
 
Posts: 6341 | Location: Over the hills and far away | Registered: January 20, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by pbslinger:
Stihl has recommended running on premixed fuels before storage if you use pump gas during the season. I think this is good advise.

That's what the mechanic at the place from which I obtain some of my outdoor power equipment does for the equipment their lawn crews use. They run ethanol blend throughout the season. At the end of the season he drains each tank, runs it dry, fills it up with real gas, re-primes and restarts the tool, runs it for a minute, then shuts it down and stores it.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
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Posts: 16620 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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outta the oven!

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quote:
Originally posted by preten2b:


Thanks jimmy but already found that. Closest one shown is 40 min away. However I have seen articles which say PA has required 10% and currently believe the website info to be too outdated to make a special trip for nothing.


The Market at Boyer's Junction

Fleetwood, PA

Groceries-Baked Goods-Deli-Meats-Lunch-Breakfast-Lottery-Non-Ethanol Fuel Station


 
Posts: 25840 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by pbslinger:
Seasonally used small engines with lots of small passages and nooks and crannies in the carbs, that use little fuel during the season, are good candidates for fuels such as Tru Fuel. My son is an arborist and he said when they went to buying premixed fuel, their problems went way down, making it way worth it.


I'm surprised that any pro would be buying fuel that costs $20/gallon on a daily basis. They could buy new equipment every season for the cost of that fuel over pump gas.
 
Posts: 8127 | Location: The Red part of Minnesota | Registered: October 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by pbslinger:
I've had some inconsistent results using ethanol free fuel. Once I got poor fuel economy on a tank of it in my motorcycle. I wonder or suspect that ethanol free fuels may not be subject to the same requirements to meet specifications as normal pump gas. You may be gambling a little bit more on what you might be getting than with normal pump gas.

I also wonder if the fuel in these tanks may not turn over at the rate of more commonly sold fuels, and could sometimes be stale.

I work on marine engines and saw what the introduction of E10 caused. The problems are most pronounced in multiple carburetor outboard engines. When a 90 HP outboard has 4 carbs, the jets for idle are quite small. Smaller jets are more subject to clogging from jelling that appears more pronounced in ethanol blend fuels. Corrosion is commonly associated with the clogging and jelling, which likely is due to alcohol being miscible with water.

The early problems I observed with introduction of ethanol blend fuels in marine engines, seems to have slowed down some. I would assume as these fuels became common, eventually all of the vessels the fuel was carried in trended towards being drier.

If you are using greater quantities of fuel, cheaper ethanol blend fuel can be successfully used with some care. It may be somewhat dependent on carburetor design. My ski boat has a 351 Ford with a Holley carb, and I haven't had problems running ethanol blend fuel. I do take extra precautions during layup to have part of the system empty of fuel and shoot corrosion preventative spray into the carb bowls.

Seasonally used small engines with lots of small passages and nooks and crannies in the carbs, that use little fuel during the season, are good candidates for fuels such as Tru Fuel. My son is an arborist and he said when they went to buying premixed fuel, their problems went way down, making it way worth it.

Stihl has recommended running on premixed fuels before storage if you use pump gas during the season. I think this is good advise.


OHHHHHH man, when ethanol fuel first came onto the marine fuel scene it was a nightmare. Please don't remind me. I took a tender 14' Nautica with a 60 hp Honda, ran it around for 2 days no issues with the gas that was in there. Pulled up to the pump and it had an ethanol fuel sticker on it. Filled up, left the marina, put it on plane at 4500 rpms and in 1/2 mile the engine just lost all rpm and died. Yank the primary fuel water separator and there was all this milky white/yellow crap, dumped it out, primed it with the primer ball...…..get motor started, go 3/4-1 mile and same thing...….after 3 times of this it ran fine on it.

BUT, the silver fuel hose that was extremely popular back then, had a clear rubber core that the ethanol ate and the pieces would go into the carberators etc. and clog them. Combine that with the carbeurated 4 stroke outboards that you mentioned, having idle jet passages the thickness of a small paperclip. Some yachts like Hatteras had fiberglass fuel tanks and the ethanol ate right through them and then all of the gas tank leaked into the bilge and started eating the hull too! It was a huge issue as well as many others on lots of boats.

Most all of the marine gas here is REC 90 (90 octane/ethanol free) it is regulated to be 90 octane, and many gas stations on land sell it too. It is possible though that some gas stations on land in your area might not sell a lot of it and it was old.
 
Posts: 18352 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Semper Fidelis Marines
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i know new cars are DESIGNED to RUN on ethanol gas but how do we/they keep the fuel lines and tanks clean with that stuff??


thanks, shawn
Semper Fi,
---->>> EXCUSE TYPOS<<<---
 
Posts: 2677 | Location: TEXAS! | Registered: February 15, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by golddot:
i know new cars are DESIGNED to RUN on ethanol gas but how do we/they keep the fuel lines and tanks clean with that stuff??


It seemed like the initial issue was two fold.

Before ethanol it seemed like the tanks and such would get a coating on the inside of them (in lightly used stuff like a boat that held 300 gallons of gas). The ethanol would then break this stuff up and turn it into a milky goo and clog fuel filters, carberators, etc. virtually right after intitially fueling with E 10.

Also, vehicles designed pre-ethanol days had a lot of fuel components that simply aren't compatible with ethanol, fuel hoses, injectors, O-rings, fuel pumps etc.

On the newer cars, the above mentioned parts used are now built to withstand ethanol (alcohol). Also the fuel tanks are sealed better so the ethanol doesn't attract water as easily. And, the fuel is used fast enough that it doesn't seem to be a problem. Even in small engines.

My lawn man is a good buddy of mine. He has a crew of 5 guys and one of those professional crew cab, dump bed Isuzu purpose built trucks and a large enclosed trailer they tow behind. He has 1000's of accounts and runs regular E10 in everything and doesn't have a problem. But the fuel doesn't sit more than a few days.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jimmy123x,
 
Posts: 18352 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by golddot:
i know new cars are DESIGNED to RUN on ethanol gas but how do we/they keep the fuel lines and tanks clean with that stuff??


Cars are used every day and the fuel in the tank is used up and refueled weekly. The issue was people letting small engines sit for months at a time, with old fuel. The fuel in the can could be a year old or more, and THAT causes issues.


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Posts: 5533 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Using Stihl-Canada info, this guy claims all pump gas is a problem, even non-ethanol. Particularly for storage, use the "engineered fuel" products as he calls them. The stuff is supposed to have a two year shelf life once the container is opened.




Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo




Set the controls for the heart of the Sun.
 
Posts: 5909 | Location: Columbia, Illinois | Registered: December 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
No ethanol!
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quote:
Originally posted by PASig:
quote:
Originally posted by preten2b:


Thanks jimmy but already found that. Closest one shown is 40 min away. However I have seen articles which say PA has required 10% and currently believe the website info to be too outdated to make a special trip for nothing.


The Market at Boyer's Junction

Fleetwood, PA

Groceries-Baked Goods-Deli-Meats-Lunch-Breakfast-Lottery-Non-Ethanol Fuel Station


Thank you, but too far out of my usual travels. The thread has helped me find that WAWA now has 2 stations in the Reading area which carry non-ethanol. Works for me.


------------------
The plural of anecdote is not data. -Frank Kotsonis
 
Posts: 1415 | Location: Berks Co PA | Registered: December 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of bigdeal
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ripley:
Using Stihl-Canada info, this guy claims all pump gas is a problem, even non-ethanol. Particularly for storage, use the "engineered fuel" products as he calls them. The stuff is supposed to have a two year shelf life once the container is opened.




Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvps2gF0Sdo
Total marketing BS. Run non-ethanol pump gas in your equipment and you'll be fine. Been doing it for years now and haven't had any issues. I truly believe this pre-mix stuff came about primarily because so many people are too incompetent to accurately mix their own fuel. A secondary benefit was that it slowed fuel degradation and related damage to small equipment.


-----------------------------
Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter
 
Posts: 29059 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: April 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by bigdeal:
Total marketing BS...


Could be but with this info coming from Stihl, I'd say it's worth further study. I don't imagine Stihl or any of the many other "engineered fuel" producers are making a killing with their expensive products. Given the option, I'll keep using non-ethanol pump gas but run the engineered stuff before storage.

I will say Steve from the above video has been a good source for straightforward and accessible info.




Set the controls for the heart of the Sun.
 
Posts: 5909 | Location: Columbia, Illinois | Registered: December 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of bigdeal
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ripley:
quote:
Originally posted by bigdeal:
Total marketing BS...


Could be but with this info coming from Stihl, I'd say it's worth further study. I don't imagine Stihl or any of the many other "engineered fuel" producers are making a killing with their expensive products. Given the option, I'll keep using non-ethanol pump gas but run the engineered stuff before storage.

I will say Steve from the above video has been a good source for straightforward and accessible info.
I have a Stihl MS290 chainsaw that's well over 10 years old and has more hours on it than I can count given the number of hurricanes its been used to clean up after, all on pump non-ethanol gas. The saw is run dry and stored every winter without any issues whatsoever. Every time I need the saw, I add gas, choke it, and it starts on the second pull virtually every time. Just keep ethanol gas out of these small engines, store them properly, and they'll serve you forever. The 'designer' fuel is totally unnecessary and incredible costly.


-----------------------------
Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter
 
Posts: 29059 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: April 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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