SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  The Lounge    Would U taze this 87 yr old woman ? LEOs ?
Page 1 2 3 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Would U taze this 87 yr old woman ? LEOs ? Login/Join 
Raptorman
Picture of Mars_Attacks
posted Hide Post
This happened up in Chatsworth, where the police only get to deal with violent redneck trash and meth heads all day long. It's a shit nothing town. The only thing to do is work a chicken farm or work at the carpet mills over in Dalton.


____________________________

Eeewwww, don't touch it!
Here, poke at it with this stick.
 
Posts: 34081 | Location: North, GA | Registered: October 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by newtoSig765:
I'm reminded of the incident a couple years ago when cops were called to a retirement community in the Chicago area to help control a 92-year-old -- they applied a couple doses of 12-gauge and he was under control and room temperature.

Bulldog, I'm pretty sure you remember this. Do you remember what happened to the cops?


I do not recall this one.
 
Posts: 5731 | Location: Chicago | Registered: August 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Saluki
posted Hide Post
That Tueller drill thing, I guess you can't multiply by say .87 to get a more accurate picture of your safe zone on the elderly? Maybe just observe from a safe distance till a K-9 officer shows up? Let her run from a dog till she's tired then go in.

People have trust issues with the po po, I don't get it.


----------The weather is here I wish you were beautiful----------
 
Posts: 5130 | Location: southern Mn | Registered: February 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Humm, what did we do or would have done in the day before Tasers? We wouldn’t have shot her. At least most of us wouldn’t shoot a late 80’s demented nonsensical woman. We had 18” of hickory, later a PR-24, a Sap and mostly a pie hole loaded with deescalation training. Although we still had our share controversial shootings, we never Tased or choked out the elderly..
 
Posts: 1447 | Location: Western WA | Registered: September 11, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog7972:
quote:
Originally posted by newtoSig765:
I'm reminded of the incident a couple years ago when cops were called to a retirement community in the Chicago area to help control a 92-year-old -- they applied a couple doses of 12-gauge and he was under control and room temperature.

Bulldog, I'm pretty sure you remember this. Do you remember what happened to the cops?


I do not recall this one.

I got a couple things wrong, sorry! He was tased, then shot several times with bean bags, from close enough that they ruptured internal organs, causing his death. And he was 95, not 92.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/new...-Cops-223977601.html


--------------------------
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
-- H L Mencken

I always prefer reality when I can figure out what it is.
-- JALLEN 10/18/18
 
Posts: 9127 | Location: Illinois farm country | Registered: November 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do No Harm,
Do Know Harm
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 2PAK:
Humm, what did we do or would have done in the day before Tasers? We wouldn’t have shot her. At least most of us wouldn’t shoot a late 80’s demented nonsensical woman. We had 18” of hickory, later a PR-24, a Sap and mostly a pie hole loaded with deescalation training. Although we still had our share controversial shootings, we never Tased or choked out the elderly..


Except whacking an 80 year old with a PR-24, which was my favorite by far, wouldn’t end well.

Personally I’d keep my distance until a decent plan was formulated. Surely I could out maneuver an old woman from a distance.

As a couple have said, this specific incident aside, a proper tasing really isn’t a big deal. The media and defense attorneys have turned it into the devil. Five seconds of suck versus hours of pepper spray pain, broken bones from a stick, injures on both sides from a rough and tumble, etc. I don’t mind fighting one, but I’ve broken bones doing that—my own—and it’s stupid when you have other options to end a fight.




Knowing what one is talking about is widely admired but not strictly required here.

Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard.
-JALLEN

"All I need is a WAR ON DRUGS reference and I got myself a police thread BINGO." -jljones
 
Posts: 11444 | Location: NC | Registered: August 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Do No Harm,
Do Know Harm
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by reflex/deflex 64:
That Tueller drill thing, I guess you can't multiply by say .87 to get a more accurate picture of your safe zone on the elderly? Maybe just observe from a safe distance till a K-9 officer shows up? Let her run from a dog till she's tired then go in.

People have trust issues with the po po, I don't get it.


Absolutely no way a K9 would have been released on her.




Knowing what one is talking about is widely admired but not strictly required here.

Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard.
-JALLEN

"All I need is a WAR ON DRUGS reference and I got myself a police thread BINGO." -jljones
 
Posts: 11444 | Location: NC | Registered: August 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Damned if you do
Damned if you don't



I know why the taser exists, it increases the odds, and it's so the cop doesn't have to go hands on. Same with mace, and the baton/pr-24...
But sometimes you have to lay hands on people.


First, the article is poorly written in the context of how aggressive or non aggressive she was. It's 2018, and I kinda don't trust anything in the media. Call me paranoid, but why is it always the nice little old lady picking dandelions, or the innocent little 15 year old child??? I may be wrong, but this story might be slightly slanted.

Second, there's about 100 different variables involved, but the hell if I know, because I wasn't there.

Third, and being most honest... I'm going to say "I don't know". Because I wasn't there.



I'd like to say "No", but....
There's also about 100 different things you could do.

Distance, shielding and cover are your friends.
Time buys you more options...

A knock on the knuckles with a baton makes people drop stuff. But your still beating on a 87 year old lady, so either way, good job, tough guy...

Who knows how the officers were trained conditioned. I know some officers who think it's 100% WRONG to go hands on with someone. I know supervisors who think the same. Preach that, or "eehh, just taze them" long enough and loud enough, sooner or later, someone's going to listen. Sometimes, training just flat out sucks.

Sometimes, the cop just done fucked up.


______________________________________________________________________
"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
 
Posts: 8321 | Location: Attempting to keep the noise down around Midway Airport | Registered: February 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A Grateful American
Picture of sigmonkey
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:...

Once called there, they can't just turn and leave. They leave and she goes missing after having contact with her in that state and doing nothing about it? They're screwed. They leave and she stabs Binky McPhiferton that she had a beef with in 1947 who turns out to be the mailman. They're screwed. They leave and she steps out in front of a car. They're screwed. Once they get out with someone who is mentally ill, they have to do something. This will continue to happen until we STOP calling the po-leece to deal with the mentally unstable, and make the doctors who refuse to do anything but change medicines come and deal with them.

...


You don't know how much I hate what the GDC have done to our institutions.

My post was anything but a denigration of the LEO responding.

It chaps my ass fire engine red, to hear of these type of situations over and over.

No, I do not have an answer, and some hard working, dedicated cop is going to find his/her ass in a sling for fucking up some stupid protocol that should not be a part of the gig.

And one or more lives and careers will be flushed down the shitter, and for lousy compensation up to that point.

All because of PC and that politics pays in $ and power.

In times past, one could honestly say; "Sorry 'bout that." and walk away from the situation.
If things went south later, well it was dealt with by the person doing the deed.

Thanks to all of you in the blue.

Be safe out there.




"the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב!
 
Posts: 43810 | Location: ...... I am thrice divorced, and I live in a van DOWN BY THE RIVER!!! (in Arkansas) | Registered: December 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by CPD SIG:

...First, the article is poorly written in the context of how aggressive or non aggressive she was. It's 2018, and I kinda don't trust anything in the media...

I agree, and as bad as it looks now, I'm sure that ultimately they'll end up looking better than they do right now.

It's 2018, as you said, but I still can't imagine why anybody would call police over an old lady cutting veggies with a knife, then assure dispatch that the old lady was not the least bit aggressive. So, what was the problem???

This started out as a nuisance call, and is ending up like some sort of outrage, but they still shouldn't have tased her, IMO.

Buncha years back, I did some part-time bus driving while I was getting a consulting business going. One afternoon, I saw a couple teens (white) walking down the road by the bus terminal, and one of them hid a Ruger 10-22 under his coat when he saw me. I called the bus dispatcher, he called the cops, they checked out the teens, both had outstanding warrants for b&e and were busted.

I know what it's like to see something and say something. But jeez!!! Old lady cutting veggies? Gimme a break!


--------------------------
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
-- H L Mencken

I always prefer reality when I can figure out what it is.
-- JALLEN 10/18/18
 
Posts: 9127 | Location: Illinois farm country | Registered: November 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Told cops where to go for over 29 years…
Picture of 911Boss
posted Hide Post
The lessons to learn from this are....

- Elderly demntia folks should be kept on a short lease and under a watchful eye.

I can’t tell you how many calls we get from adult care facilities when “Mr. Simmons” didn’t return from his afternoon walk. Why octogenarians who live in care facilities and are diagnosed with dementia, Alzheimer's, and other serious condition are allowed to go on unattended walks is beyond me, but I am not a medical professional.


- Easiest way to avoid being tased, shot, etc by the cops is to just do what they say.

Even when the cops are wrong, you should just do what they say. You won’t win the argument on the side of the road. Fight it in court or sue if necessary.


- If you choose to immigrate to another country (legally or otherwise) it would behoove you to learn a few helpful phrases in the language of your chosen land.

Since I have been known to frequent Mexico, I made a point of understanding “ALTO!”. Don’t go to Canada being oblivious to poutine. Is this required? No. Is it fair and reasonable to expect? Maybe not. At the end of the day though, you may have a better overall experience if you put out a little effort to assimilate. Ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure and all that.


Sucks that a little old lady got tased, but the things that could have been done to avoid the confrontation prior to it happening weren’t done. That isn’t the cops fault, they just drew the short stick to deal with it that day.

Could they have done different? I don’t know, I wasn’t there. I do know there have been times officers in my agency have had to go hands on with the elderly, and that sometimes little old ladies go batshit crazy and will cut anyone within reach. Real life ain’t Mayberry RFD, can’t always tell bad guys by the way they look and folks that look harmless aren’t necessarily so.


I think it is a safe bet that most of the folks who are so outraged and incensed by “questionable” taser application have probably never been on the receiving end of one. As such, their ignorance leads them to believe it is a much more traumatic event than it actually is. I have been zapped a few times and while I certainly have no desire to repeat it, it really isn’t all that bad when considering the alternatives (shot, bean bag rounds, rubber balls, nightstick, ASP, gang tackled to the ground, etc).

End of the day, a little free electricity doesn’t do any lasting damage and was a relatively cheap lesson that maybe will bring the necessary change so future incidents can be prevented.






What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand???


 
Posts: 10917 | Location: Western WA state for just a few more years... | Registered: February 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
His diet consists of black
coffee, and sarcasm.
Picture of egregore
posted Hide Post
It sounds easy at first to say she shouldn't have been tased, but what were the alternatives? Going mano a mano would likely have gotten her hurt - old bones break easily and heal slowly, maybe never - or a cop cut. A deep enough cut across a wrist could sever an artery or tendon - survivable, but would put him out of action for a long time, or even a career. A whack across the knuckles or wrist with a baton would probably shatter every bone it hit. Tasing might have been the least of the evils for all we know.
 
Posts: 27834 | Location: Johnson City/Elizabethton, TN | Registered: April 28, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A day late, and
a dollar short
Picture of Warhorse
posted Hide Post
I was not there, but I have to believe there was a better way to handle an 87 YO woman.


____________________________
NRA Life Member, Annual Member GOA, MGO Annual Member
 
Posts: 13668 | Location: Michigan | Registered: July 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Warhorse:
I was not there, but I have to believe there was a better way to handle an 87 YO woman.


So, just out of curiosity, what is it?




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 37081 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
"Don't go Ninjain' on folks that don't need Ninjain'" Diemond Dave Ninja & Judy Chop School
 
Posts: 5768 | Location: west 'by god' virginia | Registered: May 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Grandiosity is a sign
of mental illness
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by Warhorse:
I was not there, but I have to believe there was a better way to handle an 87 YO woman.


So, just out of curiosity, what is it?


What exactly demanded handling?

Can police ever be called, look at a situation and decide 'nothing illegal going on here' and go about their business? That whole 'I have to do something to take charge' thing gets old. It's that mindset that grates really badly on people who are otherwise sympathetic to the police.

That heavy handed, I'm here I have to take charge, no matter what. Even if nobody is doing anything wrong.
 
Posts: 2453 | Location: MO | Registered: March 07, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Grandiosity is a sign
of mental illness
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo54:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by SBrooks:
Yooper - I really was just wondering what alternate options you guys could come up with.


Here's the problem. Sometimes the Taser works much better, and its safer for everyone involved. Going hands on with anyone, let alone the elderly, has its risks. Taking the story at face value that she was not a threat, which these days I don't believe any account I read in the media, at some point with the mentally impaired you are going to have to go hands on. Wrestling the knife from someone with brittle bones runs the risks of broken bones or joints. I don't think anyone would like that any better. The worst part of fighting with people who you are "trying not to hurt" is you eventually wind up hurting them, in my experience.

Did they F this one up? Can't say, I wasn't there. It sounds like they did, but it sure wouldn't be the first article to make things sound worse than what they are with fake news.

Bodycam, if it exists and it is ever released, will tell the tale. (And why I love bodycam so)


Great point regarding the article. It's all we have to make judgement. I'd like to amend my previous post and add 'based on the only source we have of the incident' and we all know that there is bias in the media, just ask our President.

Jim


These dude may have screwed the pooch on this nine ways to Sunday, I'm not defending them a bit. I have just hit a spot that it is a fact of life that the media, especial local media, will make a big deal out of any police use of force. And 100 percent of the time in my experience they never get it right.

Notwithstanding, what I said about going hands on remains to be true, despite questioning the article.

Once called there, they can't just turn and leave. They leave and she goes missing after having contact with her in that state and doing nothing about it? They're screwed. They leave and she stabs Binky McPhiferton that she had a beef with in 1947 who turns out to be the mailman. They're screwed. They leave and she steps out in front of a car. They're screwed. Once they get out with someone who is mentally ill, they have to do something. This will continue to happen until we STOP calling the po-leece to deal with the mentally unstable, and make the doctors who refuse to do anything but change medicines come and deal with them.

If any of the above had come true, we'd likely be reading an article and commenting on how three cops REFUSED to do their job when (insert scenario) and they just walked off without helping her. And there would be lawsuits.


I'm actually very sympathetic to this.

Police are there to enforce the laws and for public safety. Not as general purpose 'we don't like this they have to fix it' trash collectors. Expecting the police to magically take every problem as their responsibility asnd then they MUST fix it, makes them crazy and us less free and less safe.
 
Posts: 2453 | Location: MO | Registered: March 07, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by Warhorse:
I was not there, but I have to believe there was a better way to handle an 87 YO woman.
So, just out of curiosity, what is it?
Well, video of the incident would be most helpful, but just how much physical strength does your average 87 year old woman have?

If she's ambling up towards three officers, what's to stop one office from flanking her, coming up behind her and grabbing her wrist? Or are we assuming that these three officer have equal or less strength than this old woman?

It seems to me that the idea that you never approach someone holding a knife is the issue. What if it were a six year old child holding the knife? Would the police have tased a six year old? Or would they have walked up and taken charge of the tyke? How about a woman in a motorized wheelchair? She's got a knife and she's rolling up at maximum speed. Unless she has arms six feet long and has eyes in the back of her head, she could be flanked and have her arms pinned by one officer while another officer removes the knife from her hand.

How do we apply "never approach a knife" to these scenarios? My point is that unless the police are mindless and incapable of thinking on the fly, there are limits to this policy.

One officer alone? Yeah, he might have to tase her. Two officers? I'm not so certain. Three officers? Three men in the full of life, trained and physically strong? Against a very old woman? Really? Yeah, I don't think so.

I think everyone in this thread, and anyone with a triple digit IQ knows that there was a better way to handle this than the mindless following of policy. Kinda ridiculous, and an embarrassment to that department.


____________________________________________________

"I am your retribution." - Donald Trump, speech at CPAC, March 4, 2023
 
Posts: 107254 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Grandiosity is a sign
of mental illness
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by Warhorse:
I was not there, but I have to believe there was a better way to handle an 87 YO woman.
So, just out of curiosity, what is it?
Well, video of the incident would be most helpful, but just how much physical strength does your average 87 year old woman have?

If she's ambling up towards three officers, what's to stop one office from flanking her, coming up behind her and grabbing her wrist? Or are we assuming that these three officer have equal or less strength than this old woman?

It seems to me that the idea that you never approach someone holding a knife is the issue. What if it were a six year old child holding the knife? Would the police tased a six year old? Or would they have walked up and taken charge of the tyke? How about a woman in a motorized wheelchair? She's got a knife and she's rolling up at maximum speed. Unless she has arms six feet long and has eyes in the back of her head, she could be flanked and have her arms pinned by one officer while another officer removes the knife from her hand.

How do we apply "never approach a knife" to these scenarios? My point is that unless the police are mindless and incapable of thinking on the fly, there are limits to this policy.

One officer alone? Yeah, he might have to tase her. Two officers? I'm not so certain. Three officers? Three men in the full of life, trained and physically strong? Against a very old woman? Really? Yeah, I don't think so.


This seems to have a lot in common with open carry hysteria.

If I'm in the woods near my house foraging mushrooms or something (which I have done) and I'm using a little knife.... And someone sees me and calls the cops...

What is the expectation there? Not threatening anyone, not even *near* anyone (til the cops come up to take charge of the situation), but I (dear sweet Jesus save us) HAVE A KNIFE. Do I need to be made to drop the knife or be made to comply? Why, exactly?
 
Posts: 2453 | Location: MO | Registered: March 07, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Was she simply using the knife to cut the dandelions? The bigger question is why she needed to be approached at all? What was she doing wrong?
 
Posts: 4979 | Registered: April 20, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  The Lounge    Would U taze this 87 yr old woman ? LEOs ?

© SIGforum 2024