So... the Money Pit.

I'm getting a little case of homeowner OCD, but I think this is a legit issue:

The original part of the house, built in the early 50s, has some "interesting" wiring. Each switchplate removed is another adventure in tracing rats nests of wires trying to make sense of what makes no sense.

Color coding wasn't a thing back then and I've even got some fabric-wrapped 14ga. mixed in on at least two circuits here. All black, of course.

In my quest to make sure everything is slightly modernized and relatively safe, I've come to two conclusions:

1) Old-timey non-grounded two-prong outlets need to be upgraded (and grounded, thank you).

2) I'm not running new wire down to my panel and trying to trace the 17 different outlets and switches on the one circuit running down the main hallway in the hopes that I put a GFI outlet in the right place.

Which led me to conclusion "A": "Rob, you're perfectly capable of replacing breakers, so just replace them with AFI/GFI dual function jobs and upgrade with regular outlets."

Which leads us to problem X: I've got an old CH panel with CH type breakers, not plug-on style, and I don't believe Eaton makes a single pole 15A dual purpose CF type breaker that isn't plug-on. Even if they did, what's in the panel is honestly a bit of a mess and since most of the cables coming in are tangled up around the mains, and given that the only way to safely trace the hot from the neutral for any given circuit would be by poking around up there, I'm thinking no.

So here are my questions... finally.

1) Does anyone make a CH type, 15A, single pole, dual function breaker that isn't plug-on style?

2) If I were to upgrade my panel, should I replace it with a new CH/Eaton of the plug-on variety, or upgrade (?) to SquareD or even someone else?

3) If I upgrade, do I leave it at 200A, or would it be worth the trouble to increase to something bigger which would never be filled to capacity?

4) How much is this going to cost me? (I'm not shy about spending money - I was fully prepared to drop $50-60 on a single breaker, remember.)

Thanks in advance to the hive mind.

-Rob

I had something similar in my 1970's home. Just a mess of shiot and adds onto more adds.

I replaced the entire panel in the basement and all of the outlets/switches in the house for $2550.

This included new ground, surge suppression on the panel and complete wiring inspection as the panel was redone.

Anything "new" gets new wiring pulled to the new panel in basement.

Edited to add: Kept it at 200amps...

I'm not an electrician but I have a friend that is and he's helped me on a couple of my houses. He insists on Square D QO panels and components, not the home owner line. I've always been happy with the way they work. You can buy a QO breaker anywhere. And I would think 200 amp service is very adequate for most home owners.

If your goal is to simply add GFIC protection, your least expensive bet would be to add them at the outlets where you need them, even if you don't have any down circuit protection. I had to do this in my old place that had KT wiring.

quote:

Originally posted by Krazeehorse:
I'm not an electrician but I have a friend that is and he's helped me on a couple of my houses. He insists on Square D QO panels and components, not the home owner line. I've always been happy with the way they work. You can buy a QO breaker anywhere. And I would think 200 amp service is very adequate for most home owners.

Not an electrician either, but "QO" is what my electrician buddies have always told me to install. On the new house, used Square D and QO exclusively.

QO is the go to on new. But to the OP I have been stunned what's in the pipeline at the real (not box store) electric store. I have in my barn (built in 1763) an old panel installed in the early 50's. not modern in any way. But the tiny paper tag of its model number was still there and I went by the local electrical supply store and yes I could order GFCI breakers (not yet invented when the box was installed) that fit and with the UL approval. 3 week wait. Score. A quick internet search showed me CH breakers but I'm not voting those are what you need. BUT find the right store and ask.

Square D QO, not homeline.
200 amp panel, 42 space

1) Type CH breakers are plug on, if yours are bolt on then they aren't type CH.

2) QO or CH in that order.

3) 200A, unless you plan on major addition to your house. 400a is the next size up, and it's a super expensive upgrade.

4) $2,500-$4,000 typically, plus an extra $500 for the GFI/AF breakers. If you are changing the breakers I'd suggest changing all the outlets too, which could add another couple grand. There's a very good chance that if your outlets are that old there's at least once circuit with a ground fault or loose connection which will trip your new breakers.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
1) Type CH breakers are plug on, if yours are bolt on then they aren't type CH.

Doh! Yep. Mine are type CH and are plug on. What they are not is plug on neutral.

quote:

4)... If you are changing the breakers I'd suggest changing all the outlets too, which could add another couple grand. There's a very good chance that if your outlets are that old there's at least once circuit with a ground fault or loose connection which will trip your new breakers.

No doubt. I'm already working on that a half dozen at a time. That's one of the reasons I through I'd just upgrade the breakers rather than try to ground ungroundable outlets.

-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by BurtonRW:

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
1) Type CH breakers are plug on, if yours are bolt on then they aren't type CH.

Doh! Yep. Mine are type CH and are plug on. What they are not is plug on neutral.

No box is...

Cutler Hammer bolt on breakers do exist. We used them along with GE and Westinghouse bolt-ons at the university I worked at as an electrician. Here's a link to some: https://www.superbreakers.com/...6EAQYASABEgLJRPD_BwE

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by BurtonRW:

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
1) Type CH breakers are plug on, if yours are bolt on then they aren't type CH.

Doh! Yep. Mine are type CH and are plug on. What they are not is plug on neutral.

No box is...

There are a number of plug on neutral ones that came out in the last few years.

Siemens brand is also reliable most hardware carry them and keep with the 200 amp unless your going to major expansion on the house.