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Trump judge nominee, 36, who has never tried a case, wins approval of Senate panel Login/Join 
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quote:
Originally posted by TAllen01:
quote:
Originally posted by radioman:
quote:
Originally posted by TAllen01:
quote:
Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
So what's the problem again?

quote:
Originally posted by TAllen01:
Wow. I would never send someone for surgery to a doctor who had never operated.


Yeah, cause that's the same thing alright.


Why not? Let me put it to you in legal terms. I am a partner at a large firm (this is true). You have a dispute that is a bet-the-business lawsuit; if you lose, you go bankrupt. I say to you, yes, I know you want a partner like me (or two) who has tried many cases, is good with a jury, and has had great success, but instead, I am going to assign a new associate to try your case. Yes, she has never argued a case, or been in front a jury, or written a motion, or written jury instructions, or given a closing arugment, but she's fresh and new. She might do just fine . You still choose her, all else being equal?

So sure, it is the same thing. Doctor: Yes, I have opened 1,000 chests, and performed your heart surgery successfully every single time, but I have new doctor here too that has never had operated on a live human being. You have your choice: you are going to choose the new guy? This is a serious question.

I know when I have had surgery, I have wanted someone who has been down that path before.


I still don't see how this relates to surgery.

And aside from that, the nomination is for a Judge, who will not be a participant in presenting cases to a jury.

Decisions are made based largely on prior cases, and the constitution.

I'm good with the nomination.


And that's fine. That's what good about this site--we can disagree on side issues and still have a lot in common. Smile

I'm not sure why people don't get the analogy. Experience is a good thing. In this case (deciding cases) having actually been in court (or having seen the inside of a courtroom) in a good thing.
 
Posts: 514 | Registered: November 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
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It looks like you submitted another reply trying to edit the prior one.

It is true that trial experience is very helpful in trying cases, and it is often true in judging, but at a lower level of essentiality.

This nominee has clerked for two judges, served in the AG of Alabama and DOJ at a high level, was summa cum laude and magna cum laude at good schools, so he is apparently a talented fellow. My guess is he will be less bewildered in that new role than a great many who have considerable trial experience.

Is he the perfect nominee? Maybe not. He has demonstrated excellence heretofore and has won the confidence of those who do the picking.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Good enough is neither
good, nor enough
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Don’t we have a US Supreme Court Justice with the same experience? I believe she was a law professor prior to her appointment. Elana Kagan practiced law “briefly” according to her bio, but my understanding it was rather nonexistent.



There are 3 kinds of people, those that understand numbers and those that don't.
 
Posts: 2034 | Location: Liberty, MO | Registered: November 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
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quote:
Originally posted by sig77:
Don’t we have a US Supreme Court Justice with the same experience? I believe she was a law professor prior to her appointment. Elana Kagan practiced law “briefly” according to her bio, but my understanding it was rather nonexistent.


Kagan became Solicitor General before going on the Court.

Another factor is that the practice of law encompasses so many variables that direct comparisons can be almost meaningless.

Even in litigation oriented firms, “going to trial” is relatively uncommon. Most of it is pleading, discovery, motion squabbles and settlement and status conferences. His time as a clerk is probably as good as any for that stuff.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
quote:
Originally posted by Keystoner:
quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Zero fucks. He's as likely to be decent as some senile crackpot on the bench their entire lives.

How do you know?
Plenty of examples out there, although I'm sure the legal professionals will scream the sky is falling.

Just like you would if you weren't so biased.



Year V
 
Posts: 2613 | Registered: November 05, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ignored facts
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I think RHINOWSO has a point. Look at the supreme court and I'm almost certain you may find a senile crackpot among the nine justices. One could make a case that the 36 YO in question would do a better job.

Case closed. If you'll pardon the expression. Smile


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Let's Go Brandon!
 
Posts: 10861 | Location: 45 miles from the Pacific Ocean | Registered: February 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
safe & sound
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I will admit that our system is the best that has ever existed.

I believe "experienced lawyers" are one of the problems in modern politics. More laws. More complexity. More legalese that only they can understand, and that only they can defend against.

Yet it's all of us everyday people that have to live and operate under those rules. Sometimes I believe a little less experience with the system may be a good thing, at least when it comes to us regular folks.


________________________



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Posts: 15696 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: September 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If this were someone from the left side of the fence, there would likely be less of a ripple about his qualifications. He’s young and can serve for a very long time. Sounds like a fair balance against the likes of the 9th circuit court and similar federal judges, who return judgements based on politics rather than law. Should it be acceptable, no, but the right needs to start winning a few of these battles and provide some sort of balance otherwise we might as well all buy our Mao jackets and get in line.


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Posts: 4306 | Location: DFW | Registered: May 21, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'd rather see a little more experience in a trial court judge, but he is certainly good to go. Harvard law review, and he's clerked for a district court judge (trial court) and an appellate court judge. Being intelligent and well educated in the law is more important than experience. He'll be fine.

As to the attempted surgical analogy, that is not a good analogy in this case because a judge plays a very different role than a surgeon. A valid analogy would be a person with a PhD in Biology from Harvard teaching biology in med school. Would you rather that person, or a general surgeon with lots of experience? Who's likely to be the better teacher?
 
Posts: 3425 | Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana | Registered: June 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
we might as well all buy our Mao jackets and get in line.


.....they'll take bitcoin, right?.....


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Posts: 9849 | Location: sunny Orygun | Registered: September 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Im too lazy to search for the post where the Supreme Court Judge said he really does not follow the law but just decides cases on what he thinks is right.

How is this any different, better or worse?


 
Posts: 5406 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA | Registered: February 27, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Armed and Gregarious
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quote:
Originally posted by honestlou:
Being intelligent and well educated in the law is more important than experience.
Plenty of intelligent, and we'll educated, judges are despised by a wide range of both legal professionals and lay persons.
quote:
He'll be fine.
Maybe, and maybe not. Only time will tell.

I wonder how many here opining on this, have spent significant time both studying, and directly witnessing, what goes on in US District Courts, and the huge role the judges play.

I am not a lawyer, but spend a great deal of time studying caselaw, and actually in court, seeing what really happens, and how if affects both my work, and the lives of parties to cases. Based on that I am leery of judges without an established record of actually practicing the law.

Again, time will tell, but regardless of the outcome, a 36 year old is likely to be on the bench for more than three decades. Good or bad, that judge will weild tremendous influence, over many lives, for a very long time.


___________________________________________
"He was never hindered by any dogma, except the Constitution." - Ty Ross speaking of his grandfather General Barry Goldwater

"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want." - William Tecumseh Sherman
 
Posts: 12591 | Location: Nomad | Registered: January 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by DMF:
quote:
Originally posted by honestlou:
Being intelligent and well educated in the law is more important than experience.
Plenty of intelligent, and we'll educated, judges are despised by a wide range of both legal professionals and lay persons.


Approximately half of them!


quote:
He'll be fine.
quote:
Maybe, and maybe not. Only time will tell.

I wonder how many here opining on this, have spent significant time both studying, and directly witnessing, what goes on in US District Courts, and the huge role the judges play.

I am not a lawyer, but spend a great deal of time studying caselaw, and actually in court, seeing what really happens, and how if affects both my work, and the lives of parties to cases. Based on that I am leery of judges without an established record of actually practicing the law.


As mentioned above, practicing law involves a very wide range of activities beyond sitting in court. Moreover a great deal of the activity in a case is not conducted in open court, or even in chambers. In Federal Court, you often deal with the clerk on the details.

quote:
Again, time will tell, but regardless of the outcome, a 36 year old is likely to be on the bench for more than three decades. Good or bad, that judge will weild tremendous influence, over many lives, for a very long time.


Certainly very likely.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You're going to feel
a little pressure...
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I view this as similar to hiring someone to manage a department when they have never actually done the job of the people that they are managing, only studied it in school.
Sometimes it's a disaster. If the person is very smart and gifted, it can be fine.

We will see what he does over the next 40-50 years.

Bruce






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Posts: 4245 | Location: AK-49 | Registered: October 06, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by honestlou:
As to the attempted surgical analogy, that is not a good analogy in this case because a judge plays a very different role than a surgeon. A valid analogy would be a person with a PhD in Biology from Harvard teaching biology in med school. Would you rather that person, or a general surgeon with lots of experience? Who's likely to be the better teacher?


It is extremely hard to say based on the information you’ve provided. Teaching is a whole skill set of its own. There are lots of folks out there who are phenomenal at what they do, but couldn’t teach it to save their lives. There are plenty of others who are average to mediocre at whatever skill themselves, but excel in teaching others that skill.

To leave the abstract and return to your example, the general surgeon *may* have excellent experiences to share. The PhD *may* be well read on the latest and greatest theory and techniques. Who would be the best teacher is a total crapshoot though based on the information given.
 
Posts: 6872 | Location: Lost, but making time. | Registered: February 23, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Glorious SPAM!
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Here is the only litmus test I need anymore: what does the left say? If they are against, I am 100% for. Simple.
 
Posts: 10635 | Registered: June 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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^^^ This.


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Posts: 10861 | Location: 45 miles from the Pacific Ocean | Registered: February 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by slosig:
quote:
Originally posted by honestlou:
As to the attempted surgical analogy, that is not a good analogy in this case because a judge plays a very different role than a surgeon. A valid analogy would be a person with a PhD in Biology from Harvard teaching biology in med school. Would you rather that person, or a general surgeon with lots of experience? Who's likely to be the better teacher?


It is extremely hard to say based on the information you’ve provided. Teaching is a whole skill set of its own. There are lots of folks out there who are phenomenal at what they do, but couldn’t teach it to save their lives. There are plenty of others who are average to mediocre at whatever skill themselves, but excel in teaching others that skill.

To leave the abstract and return to your example, the general surgeon *may* have excellent experiences to share. The PhD *may* be well read on the latest and greatest theory and techniques. Who would be the best teacher is a total crapshoot though based on the information given.


I tried to make it easy and obvious. You'd want the intellectual academic type teaching the class on biology, not the experienced surgeon. Likewise, you'd want a top notch Harvard law graduate making legal decisions. Now if you wanted a clinic on practice, you'd want the experienced trial attorney, or the surgeon.

This guy has experience as a clerk at both the trial and appellate level, and he is qualified to be a judge. He wouldn't be my first judge to help pick a jury, but that's not what he's going to be doing.
 
Posts: 3425 | Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana | Registered: June 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Armed and Gregarious
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quote:
Originally posted by honestlou:
Likewise, you'd want a top notch Harvard law graduate making legal decisions.
So based on your logic, these you have no problem with the legal decisions from the following:

Stephen Breyer
Elena Kagan
David Souter
Anthony Kennedy


They're all Harvard Law School grads, yet seem to be somewhat unpopular with members of this forum.


___________________________________________
"He was never hindered by any dogma, except the Constitution." - Ty Ross speaking of his grandfather General Barry Goldwater

"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want." - William Tecumseh Sherman
 
Posts: 12591 | Location: Nomad | Registered: January 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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quote:
Originally posted by Keystoner:
Just like you would if you weren't so biased.
What?
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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