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Seven US Sailors are missing after a US Navy destroyer collided with a 21,000 ton cargo ship 56 miles off the coast of Japan. Login/Join 
Be not wise in
thine own eyes
Picture of kimber1911
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Problem for the Navy is everyone has access to maps and timeline of the ACX Crystal.
They need to get there story inline with the information soon.



"This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.”
Donald Trump (POTUS) Jan. 20th 2017

"ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!" King Leonidas of Sparta
 
Posts: 2166 | Location: NC | Registered: December 05, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Coin Sniper
Picture of Rightwire
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As tragic as it is I'm glad to see the Navy recovered all 7 missing sailors and they have been identified.

I have to imagine that bending a US Navy vessel is bad, but an accident resulting in fatalities must have the potential for some serious charges.




343 - Never Forget

Its better to be Pavlov's dog than Schrodinger's cat

There are three types of mistakes; Those you learn from, those you suffer from, and those you don't survive.
 
Posts: 32430 | Location: Above the snow line in Michigan | Registered: May 21, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie
Picture of Balzé Halzé
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quote:
Originally posted by Hobbs:
Balzé Halzé, still can't figure the 180. Is it something a commercial vessel would do as a time waster if ahead of schedule or something under any circumstance or do they just always stay the course and continue to destination, get in the queue and anchor out. I think you gave thoughts earlier, just wondered if you've given more thought.


A commercial vessel will not turn around to waste time. She would simply slow down if she somehow found herself ahead of schedule.

A container ship I'd venture to say though is never "ahead of schedule." Don't know if it's even in their vocabulary. If they have a destination to be at, they get there as fast as possible. That's my experience anyway.

Question for the Navy guys. A merchant vessel will always have a voyage plan. They'll know long in advance what their heading will be, and when and where they will change course for the safest and most economical route to their destination. Plots are laid down before they sail. Course corrections of course are made if necessary for weather, traffic, etc. I'm sure this particular vessel knew this route well as it may have been their regular run.

I'm sure Navy ships must have some type of voyage plan when underway, no? Or does it really just depend on the mission?


~Alan

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NRA Life Member (Endowment)
Family, Guns, Country

"My guns are always loaded."
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What whiskey will not cure, there is no cure.
 
Posts: 16870 | Location: Out of Jersey, Into Utah | Registered: October 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As I understand and have observed, it isn't uncommon for the captain to state in night orders before retiring, that he expects to be at "X" by a given time. Navigator works it out. In fact, I'd be surprised if a destination wasn't planned even well ahead. I can't imagine the Fitzgerald just doing boxes in commercial shipping lanes.
 
Posts: 3210 | Location: Bathing in the stream of consciousness ~~~ | Registered: July 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Be not wise in
thine own eyes
Picture of kimber1911
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Just went to the U.S. Navy website to check on latest information that they were providing on the collision.

Think I found their problem.
Too much social engineering, and not enough focus on their actual job.

That's it I am done with this thread.
The Navy needs to be fixed.




"This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.”
Donald Trump (POTUS) Jan. 20th 2017

"ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!" King Leonidas of Sparta
 
Posts: 2166 | Location: NC | Registered: December 05, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie
Picture of Balzé Halzé
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Good grief.

And thanks, Hobb. That's what I would expect. Especially if they were in that area, they must've had a course laid out.


~Alan

Acta Non Verba
NRA Life Member (Endowment)
Family, Guns, Country

"My guns are always loaded."
~R.G. Justified

What whiskey will not cure, there is no cure.
 
Posts: 16870 | Location: Out of Jersey, Into Utah | Registered: October 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
wishing we
were congress
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Prayers for those lost and their families:

The seven sailors identified were:

– Gunner’s Mate Seaman Dakota Kyle Rigsby, 19, from Palmyra, Virginia

– Yeoman 3rd Class Shingo Alexander Douglass, 25, from San Diego, California

– Sonar Technician 3rd Class Ngoc T Truong Huynh, 25, from Oakville, Connecticut

– Gunner’s Mate 2nd Class Noe Hernandez, 26, from Weslaco, Texas

– Fire Controlman 2nd Class Carlos Victor Ganzon Sibayan, 23, from Chula Vista, California

– Personnel Specialist 1st Class Xavier Alec Martin, 24, from Halethorpe, Maryland

– Fire Controlman 1st Class Gary Leo Rehm Jr., 37, from Elyria, Ohio

https://news.usni.org/2017/06/...ilors-flooded-spaces
 
Posts: 9031 | Registered: July 21, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rest in peace shipmates. Heartfelt and humble condolences to families and friends :SALUTE:
 
Posts: 3210 | Location: Bathing in the stream of consciousness ~~~ | Registered: July 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Partial dichotomy
Picture of 6guns
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Looking at the various plot posts, I'm still a bit confused about "our" suspected point of collision. If it's where I think it is, why does the freighter make jog to starboard and then back to port to continue on long before the u turn. It make me think they knew about the collision long before actually making the u turn.


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Posts: 33242 | Location: NW Indiana | Registered: November 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
wishing we
were congress
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6guns,

I suspect the Crystal knew "something" had happened right when the collision occurred.

The data points are plotted every 2 to 3 minutes so the actual track is much smoother than what is shown.

The Crystal course prior to 130 was 68 deg at 18 kts. At each data point, Marine Traffic shows the heading by the orientation of the symbol.

At 130am, the course was 112 deg. It was turning starboard. The next data point after 130 has course 118 deg at 11 kts
 
Posts: 9031 | Registered: July 21, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
wishing we
were congress
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After all the back and forth yesterday about time of collision, here is my current thinking.

I am assuming 130am as time of collision until new evidence disproves it.

Why?
1. this is the first time in the ACX Crystal track where there is a dramatic course/speed change

2. Nippon Yusen has publicly stated the collision was at 130am. Nippon Yusen operates ACX Crystal

3. There is nothing in the Crystal track at 0220am to indicate a collision

4. Crystal contacted the Japanese Coast Guard about 0220. There would have been a delay in that contact after the collision

5. it provides a rational explanation for the “mysterious” 180 deg turn

6. Crystal returns to the approximate 130am point, slows down to less than 3 knots, and lingers for an hour

7. prior to 115am Crystal was on constant course/speed for over 4 hours. That projected track would have passed 1.5 miles south of the assumed collision point. 15 minutes after changing from 85 deg to 68 deg heading, the collision occurred

When an incident like this occurs, the Navy goes into a hard lockdown on information release. They don’t want anything coming out until a comprehensive analysis is completed. Perhaps the reason why they are sticking to 0220 is because that is in the public domain already; they do not want to provide more detail until the investigation is over.

The Navy knows the time of collision. The admiral knows the time of collision.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sdy,
 
Posts: 9031 | Registered: July 21, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Partial dichotomy
Picture of 6guns
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quote:
Originally posted by sdy:
6guns,

I suspect the Crystal knew "something" had happened right when the collision occurred.

The data points are plotted every 2 to 3 minutes so the actual track is much smoother than what is shown.

The Crystal course prior to 130 was 68 deg at 18 kts. At each data point, Marine Traffic shows the heading by the orientation of the symbol.

At 130am, the course was 112 deg. It was turning starboard. The next data point after 130 has course 118 deg at 11 kts


Thanks, sdy. It makes me think it took them a while to make the decision of turning back around....maybe in conjunction with communications to the home office, waking the skipper and just shitting their pants. "Normally", we might see them stop at that point, right after the collision and aid the other vessel.


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Posts: 33242 | Location: NW Indiana | Registered: November 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
wishing we
were congress
posted Hide Post
sorry to beat this to death, but look at the next level of detail




The track is steady at 127 am (course 68 deg) but has changed to 112 deg at 130 am (look at the symbol orientation)

So to be even more precise, the collision occurred between 127am and 130 am

also note where the Crystal comes back to. It slows way down and makes a loop just north of the mid point of the former track between 127am and 130 am

The distance between the loop and the former track at 127/130 is 3000 feet
 
Posts: 9031 | Registered: July 21, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
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Photos of the Crystal seem to have disappeared from the news sites.

quote:
Japan’s coast guard was investigating why it took nearly an hour for the collision to be reported. A Japanese coast guard official said Monday that they are investigating what the crew of the ACX Crystal was doing before reporting the crash.

The coast guard initially said the collision occurred at 2:20 a.m. because the Philippine ship had reported it at 2:25 a.m. and said it just happened. After interviewing Filipino crewmembers, the coast guard has changed the collision time to 1:30 a.m.


Link




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 41053 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie
Picture of Balzé Halzé
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Fox News, just right now, is still saying the collision happened at 0230. For chrissakes. Roll Eyes

This is ridiculous that they can't get this little but very important detail right.


~Alan

Acta Non Verba
NRA Life Member (Endowment)
Family, Guns, Country

"My guns are always loaded."
~R.G. Justified

What whiskey will not cure, there is no cure.
 
Posts: 16870 | Location: Out of Jersey, Into Utah | Registered: October 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
wishing we
were congress
posted Hide Post
explains a lot

also from the above report:

A U.S. Navy official said it is sticking with the 2:20 a.m. timing for the crash, the time reported by the Fitzgerald.


When asked about the earlier time cited by the coast guard, Navy spokesman Cmdr. Ron Flanders said, “That is not our understanding.” He said any differences would have to be clarified in the investigation.
 
Posts: 9031 | Registered: July 21, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sdy:
explains a lot

also from the above report:

A U.S. Navy official said it is sticking with the 2:20 a.m. timing for the crash, the time reported by the Fitzgerald.


When asked about the earlier time cited by the coast guard, Navy spokesman Cmdr. Ron Flanders said, “That is not our understanding.” He said any differences would have to be clarified in the investigation.


Daylight savings time?




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 41053 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
california
tumbles into the sea
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by kimber1911:
Just went to the U.S. Navy website to check on latest information that they were providing on the collision.

Think I found their problem.
Too much social engineering, and not enough focus on their actual job.
bullshit like this have very little (nothing for most) to do with deck plate performance of their jobs. for every task, there's 2, 3, or more monitoring, verifying, spot checking if it was done correctly.
 
Posts: 8458 | Location: NV | Registered: July 04, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by OcCurt:
To the Navy guys on the board:

How much damage can a modern ship take and still fight effectively? Or even fight at all?

The Stark took a single missile hit and almost sank. The Cole took the equivalent of a single missile hit and almost sank. The damage the Fitzgerald took seems about equivalent to a missile hit and appears to be combat ineffective as a result. British warships in the Falklands were taken completely out of action by single hits, several destroyed outright by fire or sinking. Several US Navy ships hit mines in DS/DS and were crippled.

I mean, these are warships right? Taking hits and damage yet still being able to fight would be part of their design, right?


You can't change physics. A single hit from a missle to a ship is a huge impact. When they build these ships, it's all a balance of strength, speed, and maneuverability. Sure, you could build a destroyer to survive multiple hits ad still fight, BUT then it would only go 10 mph, so what good is that. It would be totally ineffective at fighting due to it's slow speed. Or you could build fast AND strong but so big it wouldn't turn worth a darn and still be ineffective.
 
Posts: 13983 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
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Latest NYT story here.

The photo showing the ACX Crystal suggests that it is impossible to see the damage from the bridge. It took ~30 minutes or so to figure out what had happened and turn around as required to render aid.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 41053 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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