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Seven US Sailors are missing after a US Navy destroyer collided with a 21,000 ton cargo ship 56 miles off the coast of Japan. Login/Join 
Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie
Picture of Balzé Halzé
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nhtagmember, that is just simply an absurd notion. And who but the Navy has the actual track of the destroyer? What is the source of that plot?

And the idea that the Captain would always be on the bridge during a normal transit in open water is crazy, despite it being a well traveled shipping lane. The man needs to sleep at some point you know.


~Alan

Acta Non Verba
NRA Life Member (Patron)
God, Family, Guns, Country

Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan

"Once there was only dark. If you ask me, light is winning." ~Rust Cohle
 
Posts: 30299 | Location: Elv. 7,000 feet, Utah | Registered: October 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
One thing about this is the injury to the Captain, sustained in his cabin, according to the story earlier.

There is NO way a ship should get within a specified distance to your ship without the Captain being alerted, whether asleep, on the can, eating, whatever.

That alert would report the circumstances, the predicted closest point of approach, course, speed and distance, kind of ship if known, etc.

I believe that is the standing orders to the OOD on every USN ship. Whether the minimum distance is 2,000 yards (1 nautical mile) or 1,000 yards, it sure isn't 100 yards or closer, certainly while there is time to do something about it.

Maybe they OOD called the Captain, made the report and the Captain went back to sleep, but he had to have been notified, or there is the first screw up.
I have limited experience on the bridge, but my limited understanding is yes, there is no way that a ship should get that close without the Captain notified.

Obviously that wasn't done, as the Captain was nearly killed in the collision.
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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quote:
Originally posted by Andyb:
quote:
Originally posted by nhtagmember:


if it were two airplanes, what would your explanation be?


An intercept...

Looking at that map it looks as if the Fitzgerald saw the collision and attempted to turn away.
Except the Fitzgeralds course isn't plotted.

And most of us are in agreement that member RH has it correct that the collision happened before the course changes by the container ship.
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Hobbs
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quote:
Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
And the idea that the Captain would always be on the bridge during a normal transit in open water is crazy, despite it being a well traveled shipping lane. The man needs to sleep at some point you know.

I didn't say "always". You are correct, that would be crazy. But one could get out of their rack in the middle of the night for an hour or two as I often had to if something was going on. Sleep when you get out of the Navy.

Radars radars radars. In close proximity and depending on sea states, a surface search radar might be virtually ineffective due to clutter (sea return) ... a mostly scattered area of heavy green dots and shaded/shadowed like areas on an OS's console. Contacts are difficult at best to discern close in on surface radar.
 
Posts: 4697 | Location: Bathing in the stream of consciousness ~~~ | Registered: July 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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quote:
Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
nhtagmember, that is just simply an absurd notion. And who but the Navy has the actual track of the destroyer? What is the source of that plot?
Agreed, too much tinfoil in use apparently. Wink
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Political Cynic
Picture of nhtagmember
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I believe the data was collected from this website...

https://www.marinetraffic.com/...1/vessel:ACX_CRYSTAL

I didn't create the plot, only saw it and posted it

my questions are still valid as far as I know and based on the plotted track of the Crystal



[B] Against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC


 
Posts: 53086 | Location: Tucson Arizona | Registered: January 16, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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quote:
Originally posted by Hobbs:
Radars radars radars. In close proximity and depending on sea states, a surface search radar might be virtually ineffective due to clutter (sea return) ... a mostly scattered area of heavy green dots and shaded/shadowed like areas on an OS's console. Contacts are difficult at best to discern close in on surface radar unless they are on transponder or something.
Of course that's what the visual lookouts are for...
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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quote:
Originally posted by nhtagmember:
my questions are still valid as far as I know and based on the plotted track of the Crystal
Logical explanations have been provide and people who understand the maritime environment / operations mostly agree that to be the most likely event, that all the rouge ramming turns are in fact standard reversals to investigate the incident.

Or it could be the rogue ISIS crew that rammed a Navy ship then decided to run away, instead of ramming it again and again, or maybe boarding and "seizing" the valuable Navigation data onboard. And then they decide to continue to Japan to be questioned. LMFAO, nice.

Razz
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
wishing we
were congress
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This is a pic of the AVX Crystal track from Marine Traffic. (probably looking familiar by now)

I inserted the Japan local times (converted from UTC on the Marine Traffic plot)

130am is the time that the ship company says the collision occurred. Balze theorized that was also the collision point.


220am is when many reports say the cargo ship notified the Japan Coast Guard

Many many news sources (and many of us) were asking why the cargo ship turned around at 203am. Because we initially thought the collision was around 220am.

Now that we suspect the collision was at 130am, the turn makes sense.

All of the above still to be officially verified. We are working on "best guess" that matches the data and the reports.

adding : just noticed something in the plot.

prior to 115am, the Crystal was at 18 knts / course 85 deg

if the Crystal had held that course, it would have passed about 1.5 miles south of the collision point.

But at 115am, Crystal went to 18 knts / 68 deg

15 minutes later it impacted DDG 62

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sdy,
 
Posts: 19505 | Registered: July 21, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
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The idea that a container ship could intentionally collide with a Navy warship in open sea is absurd. That did not happen.

Even if the container ship is being piloted by Iron Mike, there were more awake watch standers on the destroyer than the entire crew of the other ship.

If any of the radars on the destroyer were malfunctioning, that would cause extra vigilance. If ALL of them were out, the ship wouldn't leave the dock.

After a collision especially, the ships have a duty to stop and render aid, if they can given their damages. I interpret the u turn to be returning to the scene, standing by to render aid if the destroyer might sink and have to be abandoned, etc. When it was no longer needed for that, it maneuvered and left the area.

All this time, it was in communications with shore facilities, maybe helping the destroyer whose radio shack was damaged.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Hobbs
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quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Of course that's what the visual lookouts are for...

It's not like they're all over the ship topside underway. One maybe two may have been in a position to see the contact. And that lookout may not have been able to discern much, depending on state of the commercial contacts running lights.

Concerning lookouts and the investigation into the Kennedy/Belknap mishap off Italy, the board found,"On that fateful night, the Kennedy was “preparing for its last recovery of aircraft scheduled for 2200A and was displaying flight deck lighting for aircraft operations.” The use of those lights became an issue during the investigation since sailors aboard the Belknap were unable to gain “an accurate visual “ of the carrier due to the “red deck edge lights.” ... and that was a huge freakin' aircraft carrier lit up for aircraft recovery and noisy jets landing.
 
Posts: 4697 | Location: Bathing in the stream of consciousness ~~~ | Registered: July 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie
Picture of Balzé Halzé
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hobbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
And the idea that the Captain would always be on the bridge during a normal transit in open water is crazy, despite it being a well traveled shipping lane. The man needs to sleep at some point you know.

I didn't say "always". You are correct, that would be crazy. But one could get out of their rack in the middle of the night for an hour or two as I often had to if something was going on. Sleep when you get out of the Navy.



If there were any concerns from the watchstander(s) or an abnormal condition or a deviation from SOP, certainly the Captain would likely be awake and on the bridge.

But for the simple reason of being in a well used shipping lane? That entire area is "heavily" trafficked (see below). The Captain's rack is the appropriate place for him to be at 0130 under what I assume were normal conditions prior to the collision.



~Alan

Acta Non Verba
NRA Life Member (Patron)
God, Family, Guns, Country

Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan

"Once there was only dark. If you ask me, light is winning." ~Rust Cohle
 
Posts: 30299 | Location: Elv. 7,000 feet, Utah | Registered: October 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
The idea that a container ship could intentionally collide with a Navy warship in open sea is absurd. That did not happen.

Don't blame malice for Murphy's Law.

This just highlights the fact that military operations during peacetime are still dangerous.


____________________________________________________

The butcher with the sharpest knife has the warmest heart.
 
Posts: 13386 | Location: Bottom of Lake Washington | Registered: March 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Baroque Bloke
Picture of Pipe Smoker
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quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
The idea that a container ship could intentionally collide with a Navy warship in open sea is absurd. That did not happen.
<snip>

Agree. As I wrote on page 5 of this thread: "A huge, clumsy container ship couldn't hit a fully functional, competently manned, US destroyer even if it tried to do so."



Serious about crackers
 
Posts: 8856 | Location: San Diego | Registered: July 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Hobbs
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20 years Navy here. An airman, seaman, Data Systems Technician (DS), when the DS rating was retired, I became an Electronics Technician (ET) for a couple of years and cross rated to Fire Controlman (FC). Retiring FCC(SW). I performed and was in charge of maintenance and repair to NTDS and equipment in CIC/CEC and was for a time, LCPO for radars and ancillary equipment as well ... as well as JMCIS, JOTS and classified satellite systems. I held a security clearance.

I served aboard 4 ships and have just under 12 years at sea under my belt. I was an instructor at Dam Neck as well.

Since this thread now feels "testy", I will bow out.

Prayers for the ship, Sailors and families.
 
Posts: 4697 | Location: Bathing in the stream of consciousness ~~~ | Registered: July 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by braillediver:
quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
The idea that a container ship could intentionally collide with a Navy warship in open sea is absurd. That did not happen.

Don't blame malice for Murphy's Law.

This just highlights the fact that military operations during peacetime are still dangerous.


Murphey's Law does not deal with intentional conduct.

All operations at sea are dangerous. If everything is done right, they are less so, but carelessness, or incapacity, can get you killed.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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Sorry for adding to the testiness of the thread, I just have a low tolerance for the conspiracy / ISIS did it bullshit, especially when all evidence points to the contrary.

Hobbs, thanks for your service from another Navy type.
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Savor the limelight
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Since this was a busy shipping area, is there a plot for the paths of all the traffic in the area during the time frame in question? I know nothing of these things, but it seems to me if there were more than just these two ships in the area, maybe there could have been some confusion as to which lights belonged to which ship? Something along the lines of the stories in the past year of pilots landing at the wrong airport.

If there were just these two ships, what are the chances neither one had lights on and neither saw the other? We've a couple comments from knowledgeable members stating that radar might not be reliable at close range.
 
Posts: 10827 | Location: SWFL | Registered: October 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie
Picture of Balzé Halzé
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quote:
Originally posted by Hobbs:

Since this thread now feels "testy", I will bow out.



No need to bow out. Remember that I'm speaking from the perspective of a Merchant Mariner. Even though I was a Naval Reserve Officer for 15 years, my experience on Naval ships and their operations is not extensive. I know however that we do things differently, which is why it's good to have both perspectives in this incident since it involves a naval ship and a merchant ship.

My comments about the Captain reflect my experience on merchant vessels. Your comments in regards to what may be happening on the bridge of the Fitzgerald would hold more weight than mine considering your greater knowledge in that regard.


~Alan

Acta Non Verba
NRA Life Member (Patron)
God, Family, Guns, Country

Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan

"Once there was only dark. If you ask me, light is winning." ~Rust Cohle
 
Posts: 30299 | Location: Elv. 7,000 feet, Utah | Registered: October 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
wishing we
were congress
posted Hide Post
a few posts above, I wrote

prior to 115am, the Crystal was at 18 knts / course 85 deg

if the Crystal had held that course, it would have passed about 1.5 miles south of the collision point.

But at 115am, Crystal went to 18 knts / 68 deg

15 minutes later it impacted DDG 62

*****************

did DDG 62 miss the course change that brought Crystal to the collision?

AVX Crystal had been on same course/speed for a long time (about 4 hours) and made a critical change shortly before impact
 
Posts: 19505 | Registered: July 21, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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