I had an encounter yesterday that after some reflection I decided to share with the class. There are some lessons here

Yesterday I was sitting in my home office on a conference call. As it was winding down I stood up to stretch. As my field of view cleared the window I saw the heads of two kids walking down the sidewalk. As I stood up fully I saw the one closest to the house lowering his hand as if he'd just pointed at the window I was in. There was something dark in it but I was sure what it was until he pointed it at my truck parked in the drive way, it looked a lot like this



I was stunned by two things. 1. there was a 10 year old walking down the street with a handgun pointing it at things 2. One of those things was me.

I dropped the conf. call and ran to the front door to verify what I saw. I was right, the kids continued walking, pointing it at my neighbors house and his truck. I dialed the 3 magic numbers and spoke with dispatch. In looking down to dial and back up the kids vanished. Dispatch took the information, description, and dispatched units.

As I hung up I saw the neighbors daughter coming down the street opposite the direction they were headed. I asked and she saw them, they turned and headed towards the school a block away. That prompted another call to dispatch. She said she had units on the way but had to dispatch rescue on a call so I let her go.

I walked to the end of the street and didn't see them. I came back and jumped in my truck to drive over to the school and see if I could spot them. Lots of kids out doing various after school activities, but these two had vanished. On the way back into the neighborhood I was met by 5 police units, I stopped to talk to one.

The other units fanned out while this officer talked to me for more info. Surprisingly, he did not have the description that I'd provided to dispatch on the initial call. I described the weapon as possibly a BB gun, or a Ruger or High Standard style weapon. The officer felt it could be a toy, but a BB gun is still dangerous and shared my concern that it could be real, loaded, and hot and they didn't realize what they had given that they were so young. He took my number, asked me to keep an eye out to see if they came back and that he'd call me if they thought they found them, so I went home

I saw my neighbor across the street so I went to talk to the daughter again and see if she recognized the kids. After a bit of discussion she had seen them before, but couldn't remember where. A bit later, here they come walking back down the street in the other direction. They'd been to the corner store as they had beverages in their hands but no gun. One kid was wearing a backpack though. I called dispatch again and revised my description. I heard her put it out on the air and she asked me to watch them. I decided to shadow them about a half block back.

Sure enough they crossed the street and went into a house near the end of the block. I kept walking and got the address as I watched them go in the side door. Unfortunately the unit that was headed back my way had to make a traffic stop, and was now in the middle of an arrest. I said "jackpot" and the dispatcher laughed a little. Unfortunately the other units that had been involved initially had to be sent to a bad accident near by so she asked me to hang out in the park and wait for an officer.

About 15 minutes later Dispatch called back and told me it would be a while and to go home, the officer would contact me there

An hour later I got a call from the original officer. He had made contact with the boys and parents, one did not live on the street and had been picked up by a parent. The weapon in question was a spring type BB gun, but in his opinion looked real. The parents were absolutely furious and irate over the situation. There were strict rules about handling of the BB gun and it was never to leave the house. Neither of the parents were aware that the kids had it that day. He went on to say that based on his interaction, the parents would definitely handle this one and that I had no need to be concerned that it would ever happen again.

A few things to point out from this incident based on past experience and interaction with the officer:
1. In my initial description to dispatch I reversed the colors. I gave the colors of the kids shorts as their tops reversed. I recall this as something told to me years ago that people with a quick glimpse, under stress or distracted can reverse the colors in a description. The arsonist described as wearing blue pants and a tan shirt could very well be the guy standing next to you in tan pants and a blue shirt

2. Kids with a gun these days is not trivial. Not withstanding the idea that they might really be up to no good, as noted they could be in possession of a real, loaded firearm and mistakenly believe it is a toy or a BB gun. Either is a recipe for a bad situation

3. Kids walking through the neighborhood pointing a gun at things, could have had a less than desirable encounter with an armed citizen less than excited about their activities, or a CCW who happened to cross paths with them. In my case I had my 1911 on the desk when I first saw them, but opted to leave it out of the situation unless absolutely necessary. The officer appreciated my judgment.

4. It was a little frustrating that kids with a gun took so long to resolve. However given that I'm on the north border of my city and they potentially walked into the next one where the school was complicated the response. The accidents and stop/arrest further tied up the available assets.

5. The fact that my original description had not been passed to the officers was also frustrating. It was for him as well when he found out what I'd provided in the first call. He and 5 other officers simply knew kids with a gun and had nothing beyond that. Granted I had reversed the colors of clothing, but hair, race, height weight and shoes/backpack were spot on. The officers running around looking for two kids near a school with about 150 kids milling around was a no win for them.

I open the floor to thoughts/comments

1. You did great, and I"m glad it turned out the way it did, thanks to you.
2. This is why IMO you don't trust kids, even kids who've been explicitly told the rules, unsupervised around firearms. I know this was just a BB gun, but it illustrates the point nonetheless, and could have ended tragically.

I have almost shot several kids over air pistols. Idiots.

One, the closest, back in 2009/2010 or so, I nearly broke his teeth with the barrel of my HK as he pulled the Walther P22 style bb gun from his pocket at breath-smelling distance to be met with me knocking it out of his hand as I grabbed him. He was 14 or 15, but looked 20. That was a fucking lucky kid that it was me and not a trigger happy scared rookie. I should have got a medal for not smoking that idiot.

Another I'll always wish I had killed. Christopher Cromartie. Got him on 3rd St near Market at 2am one morning with a BB pistol. About 2 years later he and his crew murdered an innocent kid exactly 2 blocks away, in the heart of downtown Wilmington.

I grew up playing with BB guns. But I wasn't a fucking moron.

Some years back I was driving up to my place of work, saw two mid-teens walking the opposite direction, on attempting to conceal a Ruger 10/22 under his jacket. I had my company call the police, and found out later that they caught one of them as the pair was getting ready to shoot out windows of homes in the area. They eventually got the second one as well, both had outstanding warrants, both went to juvie.

Rightwire, your situation could have been much more serious, even with a 10-year-old. Better to call, as you did, than not call and regret it for the rest of your life.

Damn how have times changed since I was a teenager 48yr ago. I was walking down Frances street in a town called Vandercook on my way to my favorite wooded hunting area to get some squrriels. Was carrying a Remington pump 22. Got picked up by the Summit Township police chief, Max Russell and transported to my hunting area with a pat on the shoulder and wish for good luck.

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Originally posted by SFCUSARET:
Damn how have times changed since I was a teenager 48yr ago. I was walking down Frances street in a town called Vandercook on my way to my favorite wooded hunting area to get some squrriels. Was carrying a Remington pump 22. Got picked up by the Summit Township police chief, Max Russell and transported to my hunting area with a pat on the shoulder and wish for good luck.

I assume you and most of the boys you associated with were all trained about proper gun safety. That's the way it used to be - and that made sense! Now, we teach children that guns are evil and you must not even draw pictures of them. Then they go to the movies, and the heroes use them to vanquish real evil. Even the dimmest young boy is going to see the total lack of logic in that.

I wish we could just go back to the way it was and just embrace the fact that guns are a part of our lives, so we should train our children on how to use them safely.

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In my case I had my 1911 on the desk when I first saw them, but opted to leave it out of the situation unless absolutely necessary. The officer appreciated my judgment.

So, are you saying that you left your pistol in the house?

I'm not sure I would have done this (not criticizing; just brainstorming). What if it were a real handgun, and they were actually threatening somebody or you (or the situation escalated in a bad way)? Now, your weapon is in your home (might as well be on the moon at this point). Of course the cops are glad you left it at home; IMO, many cops don't want ANYBODY to have guns but them. I can't blame them too much for this attitude, as many of them deal with all sorts of unsavory people every day, and if they don't know you, they don't know if you can be trusted or not. . .

All in all, good job. Glad to see people willing to act proactively and get involved as you did.

When I was in Jr. High School I spent every summer vacation and school holiday at my uncle's small farm not far from Utica NY (at the time I thought I wanted to go to Cornell, become a farm animal veterinarian).

I remember the first gun I handled. A bolt-action .22 rifle, purchased at the local small-town Sears & Roebuck store.

My uncle was ex army (Pacific, during WW-2), and he trained me thoroughly in gun safety.

He paid me a bounty of twenty-five cents per woodchuck, but I had to buy my own ammunition. I remember walking the three miles into town (sometimes a passing neighbor would give me a lift) to buy it, at forty-nine cents for a box of 100 rounds.

First - take a deep breathe.

Sounds like everything worked out.

I am not LE. I try - emphasize TRY - to be calm and consider INTENT / CONTEXT as quickly as possible.

A guy extremely agitated walking into a mall shouting ALLAH AKBAR with an AK is reason to 'get it on' right now.

A kid walking down the neighborhood street in broad daylight fairly aimlessly holding what may or may not actually be a gun I am not going to immediately freak out over.

But you have to take the environment / totality of the circumstances into account.

Glad no issues came from it.

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Nice work, but the last thing I'm going to do when seeing someone with a weapon is disarm before leaving the house.

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Originally posted by rusbro:
. . .This is why IMO you don't trust kids, even kids who've been explicitly told the rules, unsupervised around firearms. I know this was just a BB gun, but it illustrates the point nonetheless, and could have ended tragically.

I think it depends a lot on the kid, Rusbro. I had a couple of kids who I'd trust with a gun when they were teenagers, I had one who I wouldn't trust. I loved/love them all, but a parent has to be realistic about their kids.

Regardless, this particular kid in this particular incident clearly let his parents down.

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Originally posted by Hound Dog:

quote:

In my case I had my 1911 on the desk when I first saw them, but opted to leave it out of the situation unless absolutely necessary. The officer appreciated my judgment.

So, are you saying that you left your pistol in the house?

I'm not sure I would have done this (not criticizing; just brainstorming). What if it were a real handgun, and they were actually threatening somebody or you (or the situation escalated in a bad way)? Now, your weapon is in your home (might as well be on the moon at this point). Of course the cops are glad you left it at home; IMO, many cops don't want ANYBODY to have guns but them. I can't blame them too much for this attitude, as many of them deal with all sorts of unsavory people every day, and if they don't know you, they don't know if you can be trusted or not. . .

All in all, good job. Glad to see people willing to act proactively and get involved as you did.

Since a few have mentioned this I'll address the specific topic.

First was the deep breath to set the brain straight again. There were a few of those.

I don't yet have a CCW. So for me to leave the property with a handgun concealed would be illegal. Walking after kids with a stainless 1911 in my hand would certainly have attracted attention that neither I, or I am sure the police would have appreciated. The last thing I needed was to get shot by someone thinking I was out to hurt the kids.

In this particular case I sensed no menace from either kid. Both were quite casual. Even the repeated pointing/aiming was casual. My concern was not that he was out to do harm, but may have had a loaded/hot weapon, not know it, aimed & pulled the trigger and a hole would appear somewhere it shouldn't. Hopefully not in a person not readily visible like myself. I'm sure he couldn't see me through the window due to glare.

I realize that was a long read, but the time from initial sighting to them disappearing was a bit under a minute. Again, a guy with an obvious firearm walking around looking for something is probably not a good scenario unless you have POLICE stenciled in 8" letters on your chest and back.

At the time of the second sighting, no firearm was visible. The quick assumption was that it was either zipped in the backpack or dumped. Again, inappropriate to follow them displaying a firearm.

I have a very loud and authoritative voice when necessary. So much so that in one instance I made a guy about 40 wet himself when I was a FF in my early 20's, and I was yelling at someone else on the scene. I was fairly confident that if I saw real danger a "DROP THE WEAPON.. DO IT NOW... SHOW ME HANDS" from a position of cover would have elicited the desired response.

Seeing a 10 year old with a gun, and having mine inches from my hand at the time, posed the question. "Can you shoot that kid". Given the situation, the answer was no. That thought process happened VERY fast. The phone was the better option

Finally, some might ask why I didn't stop the kids in front of my neighbors house. He had gun out, I certainly could have legally shown mine and order him to drop it and to the ground as previously noted, and that did shoot through my mind as I was reaching for the phone. The second thought that shot through my head was the news story "Hockey Coach points gun at kid with toy". Again, given the situation that was trouble I didn't need.

Again, it's amazing how fast things shoot through the noggin in a short period of time. Perhaps age and wisdom guided this, as I'm sure if I was younger and less experienced in life it might have played out differently.

I don't know if there is right or wrong here other than it ended well and no one ended up shot, on the news, or in jail. I wanted to share as it was a unique experience and felt the group might benefit from a real incident to discuss.

quote:

Seeing a 10 year old with a gun, and having mine inches from my hand at the time, posed the question. "Can you shoot that kid". Given the situation, the answer was no. That thought process happened VERY fast. The phone was the better option

Seeing one with a gun and finding that the answer of if you can shoot is 'Yes' presents its own set of issues. My first almost-shooting was a 10ish year old, with a stupid BB gun. Only thing that saved that one was that between the time of him dropping it and reaching to pick it up again, against my yelling (smack dab in violent/gang territory, where a 10 year old with a gun wasn't a surprise), I was running at him and got close enough to recognize the gun as an exact Crossman BB pistol I grew up playing with. Took me a few hours to come down from that one...that was when I WAS a scared rookie.

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Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Nice work, but the last thing I'm going to do when seeing someone with a weapon is disarm before leaving the house.

RHINO, check your mail.

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Originally posted by chongosuerte:

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Seeing a 10 year old with a gun, and having mine inches from my hand at the time, posed the question. "Can you shoot that kid". Given the situation, the answer was no. That thought process happened VERY fast. The phone was the better option

Seeing one with a gun and finding that the answer of if you can shoot is 'Yes' presents its own set of issues. My first almost-shooting was a 10ish year old, with a stupid BB gun. Only thing that saved that one was that between the time of him dropping it and reaching to pick it up again, against my yelling (smack dab in violent/gang territory, where a 10 year old with a gun wasn't a surprise), I was running at him and got close enough to recognize the gun as an exact Crossman BB pistol I grew up playing with. Took me a few hours to come down from that one...that was when I WAS a scared rookie.

I can imagine. The obvious difference was that you were the sworn LEO responding to the call and responsible for mitigation, where I was a private citizen with eyes on a potential threat.

My response would have been different, as would my narrative, and I imagine my life at this moment had the kid and I had clear view of each other through the window and he aimed at me in a menacing manner.

I was assuming CCW. That makes sense that you left it. Open carrying while chasing down some kids (ESPECIALLY near a school) would look extremely sketchy. . .

I think I've told this story before. When I was a kid growing up in the 80's we would walk through are neighborhood to the woods with BB guns.

Never had an issue until one day we walk out of the woods and there are two police there. I don't remember what they said but they wanted to walk us home. Didn't take our guns let us hold/walk with them. It was a friend, my brother and I. My friends dad wasn't home from work yet so we all walked to my house.

Cop told my mother he was tired of this one noisy neighbor that called them all the time for kids being kids. She had called and said we had real guns. Basically he told my mom to have us put them in a bag next time so this women would leave them(the police) alone.

Times have changed although we where not pointing them at anything until we got in the woods. Now if I had pointed it at someones house I' feel safe in saying I would have never seen a bb gun again as a kid.

911 screwing up the caller notes doesn't surprise me at all.

I have called 911 to report a kid hurling Molotov cocktails into a wooded area behind a housing development on. My day off to try and get fire rolling.....911 screwed that up but I had sense to get my hand unit and switch the channel and call fire directly....I came across all the fire stations in the city t and dispatched them....911 operator was not happy with me but it worked