But what if that is the only option? They seem to be giving the stranded group some training. It is not a good situation and is not going to get better but sounds like it could get significantly worse.

I can't add any expertise to the discussion, but my thought is that I'm really glad I'm not the one that has to make the final decision on how to get them out. No real good options without some peril exists.


I wish them well.

Jim

Interesting discussion over on Elon Musk's twitter feed with different ideas proposed. He suggested inserting a tube through the cave system and inflating it, allowing the boys to travel inside the tube. No idea if that'll be ultimately viable, but it looks like a number of minds or discussing possible solutions: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/s.../1015105500105412610

My 1st thought is Musk should stay in his lane. Let's say you could get three miles of flexible conduit with sufficient diameter to crawl through onsite....how the hell do you deploy it?

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:
My 1st thought is Musk should stay in his lane. Let's say you could get three miles of flexible conduit with sufficient diameter to crawl through onsite....how the hell do you deploy it?

If you read the thread on Twitter, he was brought into the conversation by others.

quote:

Originally posted by Ronin1069:

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:
My 1st thought is Musk should stay in his lane. Let's say you could get three miles of flexible conduit with sufficient diameter to crawl through onsite....how the hell do you deploy it?

If you read the thread on Twitter, he was brought into the conversation by others.

That doesn't force him to join the masturbation session, does it? He has no idea if these things would work and he damn sure isn't going to be authorized to experiment with these kids lives.

I am all for thinking outside the box. That said, most of those type solutions likely don't exist. Proposed tube as evidence, other than a straw or pipe of some sort, what tube is open on both ends? Inflating a tube would suggest at least one closed end? How will a tube be flexible enough for the route yet durable enough to withstand the pressure and currents of the water? One might as well suggest Scotty beam them out.

edited to add:

Some thoughts on already proposed rescue ideas:
1. Given the amount of rain falling, the idea of preventing water from entering the cave system doesn't seem feasible. The seepage through ground can't be stopped.

2. Given the amount of seepage, pumping the water out doesn't seem feasible because the pump rate isn't higher than the seepage rate.

3. Digging down to those trapped doesn't seem feasible unless the complex calculations of where to start can be done with a very precise starting point. If the starting point is wrong, any time spent will be wasted.

4. Digging down potentially presents more issues such as flooding or cave in from above.


My "out of the box" proposal would be to figure out how to place those trapped into some state of suspended animation (think serpent and the rainbow toxin) coma state. That still has the issue of breathing still occurs but at a slowed rate. So, poison them with that, put a mask on, somehow affix the mask so that it can't be removed while they are being dragged or pushed through the cave system and let the professional divers remove them from the cave system as limp lifeless forms.

Even this idea poses HUGE danger to those trapped. It has already been stated that a diver's mask was pulled off by current. He had control of himself and his gear. How would that work on someone in a "coma?"

The solve here isn't going to be easy, it isn't going to be without risk, and it is very likely that there will be loss. The best efforts for those not directly involved would be to send positive vibes to those who are in the thick of it. Whatever power one believes in should be invoked to guide those in it to the best solution. There is nothing to gain from pushing ANY negative into the situation.

quote:

hat doesn't force him to join the masturbation session, does it? He has no idea if these things would work and he damn sure isn't going to be authorized to experiment with these kids lives.

- A professional diver has died.
- More rain is coming.
- Oxygen levels are being affected by the rescuers.

We are at a new level of urgency and desperation to get these folks out.

If someone with the technical and financial means wants to publicly “think outside the box”, then let him do so.

To add: “masturbation session”? That’s an odd statement, would you rather there be a media blackout and all of the outside resources go home. Let Thailand figure it out on their own?

pretty tough path to travel, seems the problem isn't just the water but the lack of oxygen in the tunnel areas between the water trapped areas.

quote:

Originally posted by Ronin1069:

quote:

hat doesn't force him to join the masturbation session, does it? He has no idea if these things would work and he damn sure isn't going to be authorized to experiment with these kids lives.

- A professional diver has died.
- More rain is coming.
- Oxygen levels are being affected by the rescuers.

We are at a new level of urgency and desperation to get these folks out.

If someone with the technical and financial means wants to publicly “think outside the box”, then let him do so.

To add: “masturbation session”? That’s an odd statement, would you rather there be a media blackout and all of the outside resources go home. Let Thailand figure it out on their own?

Yes, masturbation session, a self gratifying demonstration. That's all it is, a bunch if guys on Twitter showing off their big brains to the praise of those following. Here is what their "publicly thinking outside the box" is generating as responses

brandon fiquett
brandon fiquett
@fiquett
·
39m
Practical assistance from someone with the resources to save lives. Musk and his team may be the closest thing we have to the Avengers today! Wow

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:
My 1st thought is Musk should stay in his lane. ....how the hell do you deploy it?

If only there was a device that held a large volume of compressed gas which was easy enough to carry on your back. This device would have some sort of opening on it that could control the release of the gas so that it could be used as needed.

That would be real cool.



And you wouldn't need miles of it, you'd need meters of it. It would only need to be long enough to get through the next underwater section.

Whoever drew that picture of the water lines in the cave needs a quick lesson in fluid dynamics and physics.

A little better graphic illustration

I'm all for thinking outside the box, but the inflatable tube is dumb.

Yea, no doubt. Watching the video, it's not like they're walking on paved walkways in there...

Here is an idea from the pipeline portion of the oil & gas industry:

Link to original video: https://youtu.be/3FfYmOAHyms

It's called direct pipe. The pipe is welded to the microtunneling head and after initial bore you now have a 30" to 60" steel pipe which could be used as a tunnel for oxygen, supplies, and even pulling people out.

A lot of things would have to be in place:

directional micro-tunneling machine, thruster, separation plant, and pipe rollers

A foundation capable of withstanding the load of a 750 ton thruster

Mile of 30" or greater pipe

a metric shit ton of drilling mud / slurry

portable tanks

Sheet pile driver and sheet pile

A diver to swim in the torch(es) to cut off the microtunneling head so they're left with a pipe (i.e. tunnel)

---

Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.

quote:

Originally posted by GA Gator:
I'm all for thinking outside the box, but the inflatable tube is dumb.

I like the idea. A few engineer hurdles to overcome and I have no idea if something like that exists. Likely not an option time wise but anything besides them diving out with the conditions as I understand them.

The idea of getting them through a single person restriction in water that is likely to be crap vis. and may have flow to is scares the crap out of me.

Panic is a bitch underwater. I've seen people spit out their regulator and try to get to the surface in training. This was in the open water with people that are going through training.

I hope they use train cave divers with rescue experience to train and guide these kids out. My confidence was lowered when I heard one of the Thailand Navy guys ran out of air. They may have a ton of diving experience but how much cave diving and training. There is no reason to run out of air.

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:
My 1st thought is Musk should stay in his lane.

He's sending engineers from Space X as well as The Boring Company, an infrastructure and tunnel construction company which he founded in 2016, to offer assistance. As long as they can work on possible solutions w/o being majorly in the way, I don't see the problem.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: rusbro,

Elon Musk is not a dumb person. He has a slew of brilliant engineers on his staff. Between them, they should come up with something that will work.

I agree. I'm not going to shit on Musk. They have some amazing engineers at Space X. If they can introduce an outside the box workable solution, then that's a net win. Divers know about... Diving. They don't have the experience or skills likely to come up with a solution.

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:
Here is an idea from the pipeline portion of the oil & gas industry:

Link to original video: https://youtu.be/3FfYmOAHyms

It's called direct pipe. The pipe is welded to the microtunneling head and after initial bore you now have a 30" to 60" steel pipe which could be used as a tunnel for oxygen, supplies, and even pulling people out.

A lot of things would have to be in place:

directional micro-tunneling machine, thruster, separation plant, and pipe rollers

A foundation capable of withstanding the load of a 750 ton thruster

Mile of 30" or greater pipe

a metric shit ton of drilling mud / slurry

portable tanks

Sheet pile driver and sheet pile

A diver to swim in the torch(es) to cut off the microtunneling head so they're left with a pipe (i.e. tunnel)

That would work,if time allows. If existing passages can be utilized as much as possible, it'd speed things up.

The one thing I can see is maneuvering the head. The video is just showing the inputted plotting. With our directional boring machines, we use a sonde in the bore head and a locator above the surface, which is something that can't be done in this instance.

IDK how deep ground-penetrating radar goes, nor how long it takes to plot a path that long. That is one of a few X-factors. Maybe there's a reliable map to go off, though.