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Music's over turn
out the lights
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Our 21 month old got the flu shot and she got the flu. I have never gotten the flu shot and *knock on wood* have never gotten the flu that I know of.


David W.

Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud. -Sophocles
 
Posts: 2981 | Location: Winston-Salem, N.C. | Registered: May 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by irreverent:How do you come by the information you collected on Monday? Did you poll the parents? I think that would be an awkward question, almost designed to put them on guard. I’d think they feel bad enough that their child was sick without their Dr office asking them if they had vaccinated for something that indicated 10% efficacy?


It is a perfectly relevant question. It helps (some years more than others) with the differential diagnosis and also adds more data points for determining the effectiveness of the vaccine.
 
Posts: 7238 | Location: The Red part of Minnesota | Registered: October 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj:
quote:
Did you poll the parents? I think that would be an awkward question, almost designed to put them on guard. I’d think they feel bad enough that their child was sick without their Dr office asking them if they had vaccinated for something that indicated 10% efficacy?

I think that would be a perfectly reasonable question to ask somebody who had come into a doctors office with a child that may have the flu.

You're not feeling well. You think it's the flu? Did you have the shot? Seems pertinent to me.

Concur.

But I am curious about claims of the flu immunization mitigating the symptoms. Such vaccines work by triggering the body to produce flu-strain-specific antibodies in advance of being exposed. Since this flu season's vaccine missed the mark by a country mile, ISTM highly unlikely it would have any effect.

The health care industry needs to get its act together. With all due respect to Kevbo, I honestly believe hardly a damn thing I hear or read from the health "care" industry any more, and this season's flu is a good example of why.

First the vaccine was only 10% effective. Then, literally overnight, it was suddenly 30% effective. Then, a week ago or so, Canadian health officials suggested it was only 10-20% effective, with that latter number being highly optimistic. USAian health officials mumbled something like "Yeah, they may be right," then went right back to claiming 30% effective.

Tamiflu. A week ago or so "health officials" started recommending "at-risk" people seek out Tamiflu as a preventative, citing there was evidence to suggest it'd be effective in that role. Of course: The very next night's stories were that Tamiflu was in short supply in some areas. Now, last night, doctor from local hospital says "Don't take Tamiflu as a preventative, as that can reduce its efficacy to mitigate the illness if you catch the flu."

Meanwhile, not one word from the health "care" industry about things like: If you begin to experience symptoms, stay the frack away from other people, wear a mask, etc. Not one word from health officials that some of the best ways to ward off disease, and fight it if you catch it, is good health by way of proper nutrition, regular exercise and adequate sleep. Not one word from health officials about non-prescription, non-big-pharma anti-virals such as elderberry.

But health officials are quick to recommend that, if you get sick, go some place where there are a bunch of other sick people in close proximity to one another--which somehow strikes me as counter-intuitive.

Maybe I'm just




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"Whenever somebody uses 'liberal,' when what they really mean is 'leftist,' they immediately lose my attention." -- Me
 
Posts: 13957 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by ensigmatic:Meanwhile, not one word from the health "care" industry about things like: If you begin to experience symptoms, stay the frack away from other people, wear a mask, etc.


Staying away is good advice


https://www.cdc.gov/nonpharmac...youre-sick-item5.pdf
 
Posts: 7238 | Location: The Red part of Minnesota | Registered: October 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
safe & sound
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Maybe I'm just



Nope. I agree with most of what you say. I have a six year old that touches e v e r y t h i n g. There have been times that I've made him wash his hands three or four times in public restrooms because as soon as he washes his hands he touches something he didn't have to.

You can't get the flu if you're not exposed to it. Thus the most important thing is not getting exposed. The shot, mitigating treatments, etc are all secondary to that. Health officials should indeed spend more time teaching people how to prevent exposure: Stay home if you're ill. Wash your hands often. Wear a mask if you're ill or around those who are.


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Posts: 12974 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: September 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I can’t wait until the universal flu vaccine is ready (would be great if it can be ready in five years).


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Posts: 4495 | Location: North of Seattle, Warshington | Registered: August 31, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by MNSIG:
quote:
Originally posted by irreverent:How do you come by the information you collected on Monday? Did you poll the parents? I think that would be an awkward question, almost designed to put them on guard. I’d think they feel bad enough that their child was sick without their Dr office asking them if they had vaccinated for something that indicated 10% efficacy?


It is a perfectly relevant question. It helps (some years more than others) with the differential diagnosis and also adds more data points for determining the effectiveness of the vaccine.


It’s anecdotal. You suppose they could use that for data points, though? And, put on the spot, I’d say some folks may fib.

Regardless, I’m not asking if it’s a relevant question (I certainly agree that it is). Just asking how they came by their information- I know I had my son vx at Walgreens a few years ago, for example. I wonder if it populates in his patient chart at the peds, or if they are going off their own records, or simply asking the parents. Also, I wonder how hard it is for a healthcare professional not to display their own sentiments when addressing the parent of an ill child brought to them for care, knowing he/she wasn’t vaccinated.

I’m not looking for a fight here, folks, just asking a care provider a question as to how they collect their data.

David W, hope your baby is doing well. I think I heard they reformulated the vx and effectiveness is now up to 45% or something?


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Posts: 3481 | Registered: October 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by irreverent: Just asking how they came by their information- I know I had my son vx at Walgreens a few years ago, for example. I wonder if it populates in his patient chart at the peds, or if they are going off their own records, or simply asking the parents. Also, I wonder how hard it is for a healthcare professional not to display their own sentiments when addressing the parent of an ill child brought to them for care, knowing he/she wasn’t vaccinated.


I'm not a physician, but when diagnosing oral disease in dentistry the questions that relate to likely diagnoses are just part of the normal course of the patient interview/information gathering.

Johnny comes in sick..

"How long has he been sick? What are his symptoms? Has he been around other children who are sick? Has he had the flu shot this year?, etc"

No big deal. Physicians deal with diseases influenced by patient choices all the time.
 
Posts: 7238 | Location: The Red part of Minnesota | Registered: October 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Eye on the
Silver Lining
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quote:
Originally posted by MNSIG:
quote:
Originally posted by irreverent: Just asking how they came by their information- I know I had my son vx at Walgreens a few years ago, for example. I wonder if it populates in his patient chart at the peds, or if they are going off their own records, or simply asking the parents. Also, I wonder how hard it is for a healthcare professional not to display their own sentiments when addressing the parent of an ill child brought to them for care, knowing he/she wasn’t vaccinated.


I'm not a physician, but when diagnosing oral disease in dentistry the questions that relate to likely diagnoses are just part of the normal course of the patient interview/information gathering.

Johnny comes in sick..

"How long has he been sick? What are his symptoms? Has he been around other children who are sick? Has he had the flu shot this year?, etc"

No big deal. Physicians deal with diseases influenced by patient choices all the time.



Nor am I, but I manage a type of health care office. I’m asking how he came up with his data; how he/the staff at his office went about it. I now know how you do it at your dental office, and perhaps how health care offices you go to do ask these questions (which, imho, can have a polarizing effect).
My peds office doesn’t ask (it’s part of a major hospital system). Some offices have questionnaires to fill out, etc.
Again, not attempting to start an argument, but wanted to hear how HIS office went about collecting the info. It’s curiosity, mostly. To perhaps be even more clear, I have a master’s in scientific research, and looking at data points and how they are collected interests me, esp when we are speaking in regards to immune function and the effects a vaccine may or may not have on a system.


__________________________

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Posts: 3481 | Registered: October 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by irreverent:It’s curiosity, mostly. To perhaps be even more clear, I have a master’s in scientific research, and looking at data points and how they are collected interests me, esp when we are speaking in regards to immune function and the effects a vaccine may or may not have on a system.


Got it. I can see where the consistency of data collection and thus the interpretation by CDC might be kind of sketchy.
 
Posts: 7238 | Location: The Red part of Minnesota | Registered: October 06, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
In search of baseball, strippers, and guns
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(Sorry I didn’t see this earlier)


Medical records is the easy answer. These are all our patients. If they’ve gotten the flu shot, it’s almost a guarantee that they got it from us


The second question is the history and physical. If a child presents with flu like symptoms and there is no record in the charts of them having received a vaccine or something, it’s incumbent on the provider to ask that.

Same with a new patient. The history and physical of someone new to the practice also includes all that

I should have made that clearer. We aren’t an urgent care facility or anything. I didn’t look, but I’m almost positive all our sick visits on Monday were already patients of ours

We will occasionally get new patients that come in for a sick visit as their first patient encounter, but a lot of our patients my wife has known their whole lives (we have been open as a stand alone practice since 2012, and she worked in the area as a pediatrician starting in 2003)


As far as mitigating the symptoms that’s just anecdotal evidence from my 4 providers. They talk. The kids we’ve sent to the hospital for flu, almost all of them were unvaccinated

And we rely on the people that collect this kind of data for a
Living (the CDC). As you can see in the link below

https://www.beckershospitalrev...re-unvaccinated.html



quote:
Originally posted by irreverent:
quote:
Originally posted by Kevbo:
A classmate of mine from West Point died this week from the flu

He was still very active and athletic...former Army football player, did things like tough mudder runs, etc


Leaves behind 2 young kids and a wife

He was in his early 40s


We get the cdc info for pediatrics (because I own a pediatric practice). The majority of pediatric flu deaths are in unvaccinated children

The vaccine is not preventing a lot of flue, but is mitigating it

Anecdotal evidence is also bearing this out. On Monday at my office, across 3 providers, we had 71 sick visits. Almost all the really really sick kids did not get vaccinated

I know a lot of people on this board don’t believe in the vaccination. That’s fine. But if you are the caregiver of someone who is immunocompromised (young or old, or otherwise) please rethink it for them


How do you come by the information you collected on Monday? Did you poll the parents? I think that would be an awkward question, almost designed to put them on guard. I’d think they feel bad enough that their child was sick without their Dr office asking them if they had vaccinated for something that indicated 10% efficacy?
Not judging you or your office, just wondering how you collected your information.


——————————————————

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Posts: 6984 | Location: Bristow, VA | Registered: July 09, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Delusions of Adequacy
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I was at the doc today and was asked if I wanted the shot "because the flu is really bad this year"
I asked, so, are the strains the shot protects against the ones that are going around?

Um.... "no".




I have my own style of humor. I call it Snarkasm.
 
Posts: 16927 | Location: Virginia | Registered: June 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Came down Sunday with what I thought was a bad head cold. Spent all day Sunday and Monday in bed, Tuesday a little better. Woke up this morning not any better so went to Urgent Care.

Urgent Care though associated with a hospital cannot get any flu test kits as they are all being diverted to ER's. From my timeline and symptoms they feel that I have the flu but too late to prescribe Tamiflu so it's antibiotics, liquids and rest. Limit exposure for the next three days to uninfected persons. But as a positive no signs of pneumonia even though I'm congested. Oh yeah, few days shy of 66, cardiac patient, just a couple factors plus we watch our two grandsons during the day. I'm trying to stay clear of them.


"Leaders become great, not because of their power, but because of their ability to empower others." -John Maxwell
 
Posts: 5144 | Location: Livingston County Michigan USA | Registered: August 11, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by irreverent:
quote:
Originally posted by MNSIG:
quote:
Originally posted by irreverent:How do you come by the information you collected on Monday? Did you poll the parents? I think that would be an awkward question, almost designed to put them on guard. I’d think they feel bad enough that their child was sick without their Dr office asking them if they had vaccinated for something that indicated 10% efficacy?


It is a perfectly relevant question. It helps (some years more than others) with the differential diagnosis and also adds more data points for determining the effectiveness of the vaccine.



Regardless, I’m not asking if it’s a relevant question (I certainly agree that it is). Just asking how they came by their information- I know I had my son vx at Walgreens a few years ago, for example. I wonder if it populates in his patient chart at the peds, or if they are going off their own records, or simply asking the parents.

For someone getting a flu shot (or any vaccine for that matter) at a Walgreens or any other pharmacy, that information is sent on to their primary care physician in the form of a Physician Notification Letter or PNL. That is a requirement in Missouri, and I would assume most Boards of Pharmacy in other states require the same.

I think I heard they reformulated the vx and effectiveness is now up to 45% or something?

There is no reformulation of the influenza vaccine. What is currently out there is all we will see this year. It is made in the summer, based off of data from cases in the southern hemisphere....Australia for example. I have had people come in to my pharmacy asking for their second dose of influenza vaccine. I've had to explain that it's one dose per year. Although I'd love for that to happen so I can get out from under all the extra vaccine corporate sent me this year.
 
Posts: 1710 | Location: St. Louis | Registered: January 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by shovelhead:
From my timeline and symptoms they feel that I have the flu but too late to prescribe Tamiflu so it's antibiotics...

Were you diagnosed with an infection?




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"Whenever somebody uses 'liberal,' when what they really mean is 'leftist,' they immediately lose my attention." -- Me
 
Posts: 13957 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
quote:
Originally posted by shovelhead:
From my timeline and symptoms they feel that I have the flu but too late to prescribe Tamiflu so it's antibiotics...

Were you diagnosed with an infection?


I’m guessing prophylactic antibiotics based on risk factors.
 
Posts: 2228 | Location: (Occupied) Northern Minnesota | Registered: June 24, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Eye on the
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quote:
Originally posted by Erick85:
quote:
Originally posted by irreverent:
quote:
Originally posted by MNSIG:
quote:
Originally posted by irreverent:How do you come by the information you collected on Monday? Did you poll the parents? I think that would be an awkward question, almost designed to put them on guard. I’d think they feel bad enough that their child was sick without their Dr office asking them if they had vaccinated for something that indicated 10% efficacy?


It is a perfectly relevant question. It helps (some years more than others) with the differential diagnosis and also adds more data points for determining the effectiveness of the vaccine.



Regardless, I’m not asking if it’s a relevant question (I certainly agree that it is). Just asking how they came by their information- I know I had my son vx at Walgreens a few years ago, for example. I wonder if it populates in his patient chart at the peds, or if they are going off their own records, or simply asking the parents.

For someone getting a flu shot (or any vaccine for that matter) at a Walgreens or any other pharmacy, that information is sent on to their primary care physician in the form of a Physician Notification Letter or PNL. That is a requirement in Missouri, and I would assume most Boards of Pharmacy in other states require the same.

I think I heard they reformulated the vx and effectiveness is now up to 45% or something?

There is no reformulation of the influenza vaccine. What is currently out there is all we will see this year. It is made in the summer, based off of data from cases in the southern hemisphere....Australia for example. I have had people come in to my pharmacy asking for their second dose of influenza vaccine. I've had to explain that it's one dose per year. Although I'd love for that to happen so I can get out from under all the extra vaccine corporate sent me this year.


Thank you to all for understanding and answering my questions as they were intended. This last bit is very interesting, as I’m pretty sure I gave my ins card instead of my son’s at that Walgreens (didn’t have his on me, but he’s covered under me, so the info is basically the same), and I’m absolutely confident the person administering the vaccine wasn’t a pharmacist (and from what I know they aren’t trained to administer injections), a nurse, or even a nurse’s aide. A pharmacy tech, if that (I know, because I asked the individual about their training in giving the vx). Hells bells, I’m a retired cvt, and could administer a dose better than that dude, but water under the bridge.
I’ll have to look and see where I read about the reformulation, because it didn’t make sense, but I was hopeful at the higher percentage of efficacy.
Mostly I’m curious about all the information flying about, where numbers are originating from, trying to decipher facts from fiction, and some of the fearmongering on social media. Thank you all for providing some insight. It’s always an education on the forum.


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Posts: 3481 | Registered: October 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not sure if pharmacy techs are able to administer in other states, in Missouri they cannot. It’s either the pharmacist or a pharmacy intern. Proper injection technique is key to a pain free experience. Some can do it pain free regularly and others can’t.
 
Posts: 1710 | Location: St. Louis | Registered: January 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
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So I found out today I have the stupid Flu. Got a prescription for Termaflu. Came home and started doing some reading. Only cuts recovery time by one day. Darn it, I wouldn't have spent in excess of $100 on the script if I knew that going into it.



Jesse

A couple SIGs and a few others
 
Posts: 11874 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: December 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It's hitting us hard now. The opposite shift of mine had four of seven sent home yesterday after testing positive for the flu. The dispatch room reeks of Lysol this morning.




Here's to the sunny slopes of long ago.
 
Posts: 3052 | Location: Morganton, NC | Registered: December 31, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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