Learn English, study in a tech school or college, and get a job.

Move on.

My point of view on this has changed over the years, and it won't be popular around here.

Yes, a person needs to learn a form of English that allows them to function worldwide, even if learning "standard" english is a second language to ebonics. Like it or not, english is the de facto lingua franca among the various peoples of the world. However, ebonics, or American Urban English, or whatever you want to call it, is a form of english, with its own grammar and rules. Simply being brought up to speak it does not make you stupid. Ebonics itself is a pidgin (or creole, if you think it's gone that far) resulting from the history of black people in this country, and the blending of their various tongues with english. When you observe young ebonics speakers, it definitely has a structure to it. To dismiss its speakers as stupid is an unfortunate vivification of the idea that a particular people have less value and intelligence due to their manner of speech. This is similar to a northerner assuming that a southern drawl is indicative of less intelligence or education.

I am not here to defend the teaching of ebonics in lieu of english, or to advocate that other disciplines be taught using ebonics. I am simply pointing out that being brought up speaking ebonics does not make one lazy or stupid. It is simply another tongue. Keep in mind that these worlds I'm typing now are essentially the ebonics of the 15th century. Clearly, if I were properly educated, I would be typing this in latin, or if I were royalty, perhaps french. But certainly not the gutter tongue, english.

This genius might want to read, Twice as Less: Black English and the Performance of Black Students in Mathematics and Science.

Silent

The school is probably more about getting money out of stupid persons's pockets than anything else. The ebonics part is probably just a ruse or excuse.

Years ago, a liberal columnist wrote a piece saying the best way to honor Dr. King would be to do something special in school on Martin Luther King Day as opposed to giving kids the day off.

Of course, he's since gotten the message and reliably speaks out in favor of nonsense like this.

I completely agree with those who've said that lowering standards for minorities is just as racist as Jim Crow laws.

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
My point of view on this has changed over the years, and it won't be popular around here.

Yes, a person needs to learn a form of English that allows them to function worldwide, even if learning "standard" english is a second language to ebonics. Like it or not, english is the de facto lingua franca among the various peoples of the world. However, ebonics, or American Urban English, or whatever you want to call it, is a form of english, with its own grammar and rules. Simply being brought up to speak it does not make you stupid. Ebonics itself is a pidgin (or creole, if you think it's gone that far) resulting from the history of black people in this country, and the blending of their various tongues with english. When you observe young ebonics speakers, it definitely has a structure to it. To dismiss its speakers as stupid is an unfortunate vivification of the idea that a particular people have less value and intelligence due to their manner of speech. This is similar to a northerner assuming that a southern drawl is indicative of less intelligence or education.

I am not here to defend the teaching of ebonics in lieu of english, or to advocate that other disciplines be taught using ebonics. I am simply pointing out that being brought up speaking ebonics does not make one lazy or stupid. It is simply another tongue. Keep in mind that these worlds I'm typing now are essentially the ebonics of the 15th century. Clearly, if I were properly educated, I would be typing this in latin, or if I were royalty, perhaps french. But certainly not the gutter tongue, english.

I won't disagree that being capable in street talk may be useful, but the problem is that a vast majority of those who do absolutely refuse to make an effort to learn standard English and function in the greater Society. Call me a bigot if you want to, but if I am attempting to work with someone who only speaks in Ebonics, I will probably just break off and find someone else to converse/deal with. I don't think I should have to learn Ebonics to function in Society. (And yes--I DO think English should be our official National Language, and that one must learn it to become a citizen. It used to be that way, but the influx of "anchor babies" who become citizens without the benefit of controls has undermined that attempt.)

flashguy

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
My point of view on this has changed over the years, and it won't be popular around here...

Popular or not, that was an informed point communicated clearly and without rancor. Thanks.

In Sociology 101 we had to peer review each other's work. It was essentially busy work so the prof could spend less time lecturing though I'm sure he justified it as part of the learning process or some bullshit. One of the kids I traded papers with was a football player from the hood. We shared a major and I was friendly with him. He was a smart guy and I liked him though our politics were 180 degrees from each other. I reviewed his paper and corrected grammar and tried to give constructive criticism as assigned. He did the same but corrected my proper English grammar to Ebonics. Thanks prof, really helpful and a splendid use of my tuition.

I understand and can use Ebonics. I guess code switching should go on my resume. Pay raise?

Ebonics...the kwanzaa of languages

What a truckload of bullshit.

I'm an immigrant, didn't learn English until I started Kindergarten. Somehow I managed to do fine and I don't even speak with an accent.

Just more fucking excuses on why people fail.

Look no further than our own forum member 0-0

When I read any of his posts I am astonished by his outstanding use of colloquial English. It is hard to believe that he is not a native English speaker.

---

I also think of my own mother. She was not an immigrant like Edmond (see his post, just before this one), but she was the first of her bloodline to be born here in the U.S.A. Her parents were Jews who barely made it out of Russia alive. They lived in a 'hood in Brooklyn, inhabited primarily by refugees from Russia, Poland, and other eastern and central European countries.

Although fluent in Russian, Polish, Yiddish, and German, my mother never spoke nor even understood any English until she entered kindergarten in NY. As she progressed through school her spoken and written English became unflawed. She was well-read.

At work later in life none of her co-workers had any idea that English was not her first language until the first time that some members of the Philadelphia Orchestra were forced to remain overnight due to weather after a performance at Carnegie Hall.

When they were checking in at the hotel where Mom was the night manager, a couple of musicians who were not fluent in English needed some help. My mother switched to German, had a long fan-type conversation with them (she was a classical musician and went to many of their concerts) and got them taken care of. They later sent her an autographed photo of Eugene Ormandy that hung in a place of honor on the wall in her apartment until she died.

quote:

Originally posted by Test1968:
Ms. Gallagher,

Please explain to me, and the rest of the thinking world how all the other ethnic groups that have come to this country, post WWII, managed to learn conversational and even written English without feeling oppressed?? Please explain to me, and the rest of the thinking world how all the other ethnic groups that have come to this country, post WWII, managed to learn conversational and even written English without feeling oppressed??

Ebonics is a 'made up' language of people to lazy to speak in a normal accepted form of English

How very true. I listen to a program on TV every Saturday night called Mollie B'S polka PArty and a good number of songs are sung in their native language and I think this is great but somehow the folks singing them and playing them don't seem to be oppressed at all but, a contributing faction of the general public. Crap like this just burns me.

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
My point of view on this has changed over the years, and it won't be popular around here.

No, it is not going to be popular. Seems that folks around this forum do look down on opinions and ideas that just speed up the race to the bottom.

And your point of view mixes an intelligent argument, with social-emotional blah blah talking points.

Let's take your comparison to creole. Please point me out one successful person from south Louisiana (I know a bunch) who is allowed to speak Coonass because it is their native tongue in Fortune Five Hundred companies? Correct answer? None. Despite being emigrants from Arcadia, they learn proper English, learn how to use proper English, sentence structure, and the like. And then they thrive. Yeah, I know a thing or two about it. It is where my people are from.

The race to the bottom is full of feel good ideas of "acceptance, tolerance, and inclusion". Everyone is special. We should be making more exceptions to other people so we can be viewed as being a more "civilized" nation.

Horseshit.

We need to stop lowering the bar to make things easier, and start educating people on how they can thrive and take a step up.

The race to the bottom continues.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
My point of view on this has changed over the years, and it won't be popular around here.

No, it is not going to be popular. Seems that folks around this forum do look down on opinions and ideas that just speed up the race to the bottom.

And your point of view mixes an intelligent argument, with social-emotional blah blah talking points.

Let's take your comparison to creole. Please point me out one successful person from south Louisiana (I know a bunch) who is allowed to speak Coonass because it is their native tongue in Fortune Five Hundred companies? Correct answer? None. Despite being emigrants from Arcadia, they learn proper English, learn how to use proper English, sentence structure, and the like. And then they thrive. Yeah, I know a thing or two about it. It is where my people are from.

The race to the bottom is full of feel good ideas of "acceptance, tolerance, and inclusion". Everyone is special. We should be making more exceptions to other people so we can be viewed as being a more "civilized" nation.

Horseshit.

We need to stop lowering the bar to make things easier, and start educating people on how they can thrive and take a step up.

The race to the bottom continues.

Excellent commentary on the topic. I'd simply offer one final thought. This nonsense is simply another aspect of the current PC BS of acceptance/tolerance as an excuse for not requiring assimilation into American society and culture.

Ebonics isn't a language, its grunting shorthand

learn English or get left behind

if you 'speak' Ebonics, then don't expect to become a brain surgeon

you're not being oppressed by 'whitey', you're being oppressed by your own stupidity

Math and science are hard, too. Let's just let those students create their own curriculum-maybe coloring books and doodling would be easy enough. Give them a diploma after four years, and sign them up for free shit.

But they riot over Charles Murray.

quote:

This ridiculous broad knows absolutely nothing

Au contraire, she's smart enough to set herself up for a non-profit where she will not really work another day in her life, except fundraising and giving speeches. Money for nothing, the damage for free.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

No, it is not going to be popular. Seems that folks around this forum do look down on opinions and ideas that just speed up the race to the bottom.

And your point of view mixes an intelligent argument, with social-emotional blah blah talking points.

Let's take your comparison to creole. Please point me out one successful person from south Louisiana (I know a bunch) who is allowed to speak Coonass because it is their native tongue in Fortune Five Hundred companies? Correct answer? None. Despite being emigrants from Arcadia, they learn proper English, learn how to use proper English, sentence structure, and the like. And then they thrive. Yeah, I know a thing or two about it. It is where my people are from.

The race to the bottom is full of feel good ideas of "acceptance, tolerance, and inclusion". Everyone is special. We should be making more exceptions to other people so we can be viewed as being a more "civilized" nation.

Horseshit.

We need to stop lowering the bar to make things easier, and start educating people on how they can thrive and take a step up.

The race to the bottom continues.

You have completely missed my point. Let me reiterate by quoting myself.

I am not advocating the teaching of anything in ebonics and I am not agreeing with Gallagher.

quote:

Yes, a person needs to learn a form of English that allows them to function worldwide, even if learning "standard" english is a second language to ebonics.

...

I am not here to defend the teaching of ebonics in lieu of english, or to advocate that other disciplines be taught using ebonics. I am simply pointing out that being brought up speaking ebonics does not make one lazy or stupid. It is simply another tongue.

My beef is with the idea expressed elsewhere in this thread that an ebonics speaker is stupid.

As far as Louisiana Creole, you brought that up, not me. I compared nothing to Louisiana Creole, but am using the term "creole" in the academic sense of the blending of two languages. However, in your statement you seem to be making my point that a creole speaker is not inherently stupid. To your question, though. If you are looking for native creole speakers who are successful in their native tongue, there are millions of people living happy lives in South Africa speaking Afrikaans. Many of these creole speakers also are fluent in English and other languages. One other item that is apparently too opaque in my original post was the point that English itself is a creole resulting from the 8-9th century blending of Norse languages with the native tongues, the 1066 invasion of William the Conqueror, and the somewhat legitimization of English in the 14th century by people like Geoffrey Chaucer.

quote:

And your point of view mixes an intelligent argument, with social-emotional blah blah talking points.

I attempted to keep my point of view limited to the linguistics only, and my post was entirely mine. I am not aware that my ideas coincide with any group's talking points. Your post drags in the social/cultural/emotional element, mixing in many of the failings of liberal urban policies in your reasoning. Perhaps it is impossible for many to see a difference, being that ebonics is so closely tied to the culture of the group that speaks it, and incites an emotional response to those that hear it, and also discussions about it.

I am sorry that you missed my point.

English is a relatively complex and precise language. It's rather difficult to use it properly and to its best advantage.

Ebonics doesn't strike me as another language so much as a failure to properly learn even the most rudimentary level of English.

Perhaps being limited to Ebonics isn't indicative of one's intelligence. But then if one were sufficiently intelligent, it's curious why that person would not be aware of and be able to speak proper English.

After all, of what use is intelligence without an ability to communicate properly and precisely? Seems silly to be intelligent yet be misunderstood.

In this day and age, what about Ebonics is to be celebrated?

quote:

Originally posted by berto:
In Sociology 101 we had to peer review each other's work. It was essentially busy work so the prof could spend less time lecturing though I'm sure he justified it as part of the learning process or some bullshit. One of the kids I traded papers with was a football player from the hood. We shared a major and I was friendly with him. He was a smart guy and I liked him though our politics were 180 degrees from each other. I reviewed his paper and corrected grammar and tried to give constructive criticism as assigned. He did the same but corrected my proper English grammar to Ebonics. Thanks prof, really helpful and a splendid use of my tuition.

I understand and can use Ebonics. I guess code switching should go on my resume. Pay raise?

My brother in law is a high school teacher in Germany. Or was, until he retired.

Back in 1991 when I was teaching at Hampton U. he came to visit us. He brought a stack of student papers to be graded. They were in English.

We went through those papers together. Those high school English papers from that German class were miles ahead of what I was dealing with in my classes.

Remember, this was back in 1991. All black college/university and command of the English language by German high school students was light years ahead of 3rd & 4th year year students at Hampton U.