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Picture of fpuhan
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I'm not overly concerned. "Adapt of die" has been battle cry of retailers ever since Charles Darwin postulated that man evolved from the ape (another discussion, another time). Remember the example of the ice men when refrigerators were invented? Some became refrigerator mechanics. Others refrigerator delivery men. Henry Ford's assembly line didn't invent the motor vehicle, it just made it easier to build and cheaper to own.

These are examples of disruptive technologies. We're reading and typing on one now. In the sixties and seventies, computing technology took forklifts to move about. Now, we carry more computing power in our pockets.

I work part-time for a retailer who just celebrated the company's 15th anniversary. The owners have seen what the Internet has done, but they have responded by "upping their game." Not only has their focus always been on customer service and product expertise, but they have also begun reaching out to local community organizations, such as schools, churches, civic groups, fire departments, etc. Instead of waiting for the customer to walk through the door, they are going out and creating new customers.

At risk, in my opinion, are the retailers who either are unable to think forward, or who are too generalized to compete.




You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you're not capable of great violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless.

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Posts: 2857 | Location: Peoples Republic of North Virginia | Registered: December 04, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Knowing is Half the Battle
Picture of Scuba Steve Sig
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It is sad that Younkers is closing, but I will not miss them. Their staffing was horrible and nobody buys clothes at department stores anymore. Jordan Creek isn't hurting for business and this won't effect them, it will put a dent in some malls though. These big boxes are hard to fill, but their days are numbered. Perhaps renovate them into Drone-ports for Amazon deliveries.
 
Posts: 2504 | Location: Iowa by way of Missouri | Registered: July 18, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
teacher of history
Picture of maxwayne
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Our mall has lost Penneys, Old Navy, Macy's and just this week Bergners. It will be a ghost town soon.
 
Posts: 5610 | Location: Central Illinois | Registered: March 04, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
quarter MOA visionary
Picture of smschulz
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quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj:
quote:
Its not about the few dollars saved, its about convenience and not having to deal with other people.



Well it's clearly worth destroying local businesses due to that alone.

I don't think some of you guys have thought this through. You seem to be stopping at the me, me, me part not understanding how it's going to impact you a bit further down the road.


There are a lot of factors here and it is the unfortunate transition of the business cycle.

I personally think "dealing with people" is an asset (or should be) for any local dealer/retailer.
The simple minded just complain and blame this or that.

They also wish for an online only where no B&M stores exist > that will never happen.
You have to adapt, plain and simple.

I do sympathize with others who grew up before the "Internet" when the retail store was the primary method.
I don't think it will go away but those retailers will have to adapt, with profits to cover overhead that the online only guys don't have.
So simple is it to just look at Amazon or whatever and have it shipped directly to you.

I grew up in the technology/electronics business at various levels of distribution > retail/wholesale/direct sales/factory rep and things have changed dramatically.

Doesn't mean you can't exist, in many ways it is easier and harder, more expensive in others.
It does anger me when someone works over a local retailer for information with no intention of buying only to go buy it online.

You just need to figure out your niche.
Services is one of them.

The good thing about capitalism that everyone has a chance if you want it.
 
Posts: 22860 | Location: Houston, TX | Registered: June 11, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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the inability for people to interact in public ,
that will be in the the bottom line when America gets parted out to canada, mexico and flavonia





Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency.



Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first
 
Posts: 54504 | Location: Henry County , Il | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
It's pronounced just
the way it's spelled
posted Hide Post
So retailers really think that I WANT to depend on the Post Office, UPS or FedEx to get my stuff delivered sometime in an unknown number of days?!? And have to return an unreasonable number of them because they don't fit or aren't right in some other way?

What has happened is that there are products I want, like or need that they have stopped carrying. But I CAN buy them on line.

A couple of examples, one being favorite brands of foods, the other being higher end rifle optics, and I live in the 5th largest metro area in the US, in the most gun friendly state in the continental US.

Soon,all you will be able to buy locally will be items like fresh meats, vegetables, milk, etc. Maybe some things that need to be personalized to you in particular.
 
Posts: 1498 | Location: Arid Zone A | Registered: February 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My nephew has not shopped in a B&M store more than three times a year , for the last 5 years.

He claims that as more and more people shop on line, the super markets will get smaller and smaller. He is in commercial real estate.

for me this is good news , we need a 4 acre grocery store like we need 10 acre parking lots. ( we don't)





Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency.



Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first
 
Posts: 54504 | Location: Henry County , Il | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
quarter MOA visionary
Picture of smschulz
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quote:
Originally posted by Nuclear:
So retailers really think that I WANT to depend on the Post Office, UPS or FedEx to get my stuff delivered sometime in an unknown number of days?!? And have to return an unreasonable number of them because they don't fit or aren't right in some other way?

What has happened is that there are products I want, like or need that they have stopped carrying. But I CAN buy them on line.

A couple of examples, one being favorite brands of foods, the other being higher end rifle optics, and I live in the 5th largest metro area in the US, in the most gun friendly state in the continental US.

Soon,all you will be able to buy locally will be items like fresh meats, vegetables, milk, etc. Maybe some things that need to be personalized to you in particular.


No question the cost of inventory is a primary concern in the B&M environment.

Look at it from the retailers point of view in addition to self-interest consumer view > then the picture becomes much clearer.
 
Posts: 22860 | Location: Houston, TX | Registered: June 11, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
אַרְיֵה
Picture of V-Tail
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj:
I save a few dollars on Amazon, so it's worth it!
Typical V-Tail shopping experience:
  • Go to store, can not find product I'm looking for.

  • Hunt around the store, looking for somebody to help me. Remember, one of the "advantages" of going to a store vs. ordering online is the alleged ability to get help from an actual human.

  • Eventually find somebody. Explain, describe, what I'm looking for. Observe blank expression on face. Store person calls for somebody who might (or not) actually know something.

  • Second person, or maybe third, informs me that they do not stock the item, but they can order it from the warehouse and have it for me in three or four days.
At this point, I decide that if it has to be ordered, I can get it faster and at lower cost with no shipping charge by ordering it myself from Amazon.

This is not a one-time occurrence. It happens over and over.

Local stores: Do you want my business? Fine, how about keeping the items in stock. You know, the items that you show on your website. And if not in stock, how about shipping that is competitive, in terms of delivery time and coxt?



הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים
 
Posts: 30548 | Location: Central Florida, Orlando area | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The guy behind the guy
Picture of esdunbar
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The internet allows consumers to be experts in what they are shopping for.

If I want to buy a safe, I'll do hours and hours and hours of research. I'll read reviews and educate myself.

All of this effort will culminate in the decision to buy a specific model.

If a local store doesn't have that model, I will order it online and have it delivered.

Years ago, before the internet, I would have gone into a safe B&M store and asked someone to advise me on what to buy, and be limited to what they have in stock or "can order" from the brand they rep.

I've noticed that unless I talk to someone who has a ton of experience in whatever it is I'm buying, I usually know more about the product and its competitors than the salesperson in the store does.

It's simply because I was hyper focused on my product and the salesperson has to know a little bit about everything. Rare is the salesperson who is eyeballs deep in everything in the store.

This is the challenge B&M stores have. They can't inventory everything, so they can't possibly have what I've researched and want all the time.

The mistake is that they are not adapting. For example, take two of my local gun stores.

One store has his inventory on line, but no prices. Another store doesn't even have their inventory on line. Both store owners say they don't put up their pricing and what they have because they want people to stop into the store. They feel if they list their prices that people will simply price shop and not bother stopping in.

I think that is a major mistake. All local gun stores should list their inventory, prices and have a request a quote form that is easy to use. That service would give a price and a time until it could be in the store.

If you don't put your inventory and prices out there, you're not even in the game IMO.

Stores can't expect to inventory everything modern "expert" consumers want to buy, so they need to be Johny on the Spot in getting in what the consumer wants and make it easy for them to do.

If you need to me come into your store for me to do business with you, you likely won't have me as a customer.

Back to my safe example, if a store doesn't have the safe I want, but they can quote me a price and say they'll have it in hand in X days, I'd happily do business with them.
 
Posts: 7548 | Registered: April 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
safe & sound
Picture of a1abdj
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You guys still aren't getting it. This isn't just about brick and mortar businesses being in business, or adapting and surviving.

This is about your communities, and what will happen to them as these businesses close. What is currently happening to them due to the decrease in tax revenue.

You guys are looking at this one step ahead. You need to be about 4 or 5 steps further in your thinking. There is a huge trickle down impact from this trend.


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Posts: 15696 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: September 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The guy behind the guy
Picture of esdunbar
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I don't think anyone is missing anything.

You suggest that we should not get the product we want and buy what a local store happens to have for the good of our community?

I'm not about to do that. I think my community will adapt and change. People better figure out what it is they can offer to the community or they will be out of a job.
 
Posts: 7548 | Registered: April 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
safe & sound
Picture of a1abdj
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quote:
for the good of our community?



Yes. So that your property values don't decrease. So that your public services are still provided at adequate levels. Things like that.

Here's a story about another community in Ohio:

https://www.theatlantic.com/bu...-tax-revenue/527697/

quote:
Springfield, OHIO—The Upper Valley Mall here used to be a place that drew in shoppers. Now it looks like a fortress designed to keep them out. The concrete façade of the empty department store looms large at one end, the letters that once spelled “JC Penney” removed but their outline still present. A recently shuttered movie theater anchors the mall’s middle, its dark glass foreboding. And at the other end, an MC Sports store is draped in garish yellow and red signs that read “STORE CLOSING” and “EVERYTHING MUST GO.”

Inside the mall, the majority of the stores are empty, their gates locked. Only a few bother to put up “for lease” signs. In the past few years, this mall has lost JC Penney, Macy’s, American Eagle, Christopher & Banks, Rue21, Deb Shops, Vanity, and Kays, to name a few, according to Brenda LaBonte, the mall’s manager. The few that remain—a CVS, a Claire’s Boutique, and a Hot Topic—were empty on a recent weekday evening.

Scenes like this are playing out across America. As my colleague Derek Thompson has pointed out, the reasons for the decline of malls are multifold: People are buying more things online, developers built too many malls in the 1980s and 1990s, and consumers are now spending more on services and less on material goods.

But these changes in spending habits have big implications for the counties and towns that depend on retail for sales- and income-tax revenue. Many of the areas affected by retail closures have already weathered other departures: factories closing, young people departing for bigger cities, home values dropping. The constant departure of more retail stores is another blow. Some counties in Ohio, for instance, get half of their budget from the sales tax that they levy on top of the state’s 5.75 percent rate, according to Suzanne Dulaney, the executive director of the County Commissioners Association of Ohio.

Nationwide, sales taxes comprise nearly one-third of the taxes that state governments collect and about 12 percent of what local governments collect, according to Lucy Dadayan, a senior researcher at the Nelson A. Rockefeller Institute of Government, a New York-based research group. “The epic closures of the brick-and-mortar stores is troubling news for state and local government sales-tax collections,” she said. They’re already feeling the hit: States’ tax revenues grew just 1.9 percent between 2014 and 2015, after growing 5.8 percent in the previous four quarters, according to the Rockefeller Institute. Local-government sales-tax collections grew just 1.7 percent, after growing 7.5 percent in the previous four quarters. In Ohio, state tax revenues grew just 0.1 percent, when adjusted for inflation, between 2015 and 2016, according to Dadayan. When revenues don’t continue to grow, governments have to slow down spending and can’t readily invest in long-term projects.

“The mall has been slowly shrinking,” Richard Lohnes, a commissioner in Clark County, where the Upper Valley Mall is located, told me. “And losing any retail business has an impact on Clark County—it has hurt.” The county is bracing for more impacts—the Sears at the Upper Valley Mall may soon close, Lohnes said, even as the mall tries to attract new businesses in to fill empty stores.

Clark County is not alone. In the southeastern part of Ohio, near the border with West Virginia, Belmont County gets $17 million of its $22 million budget from sales-tax revenues, Mark Thomas, a county supervisor, told me. The county has lost a bevy of retailers of late, including Elder-Beerman, Hhgregg, MC Sports, and Radio Shack. A Kmart in St. Clairsville is expected to close soon, according to the company. The decline in sales tax isn’t the only thing that hurts revenues—abandoned malls mean less revenue from commercial property taxes too. Local governments also see lower income taxes and, when retail workers are unemployed, they spend less, creating a vicious cycle of less and less revenue. “That trickle-down effect is huge,” Thomas said.

The retail closures are affecting regions that already have their fair share of economic problems. These are places where many factories and businesses have already shut down, and where consumers have less money to spend than they used to. Springfield, where the Upper Valley Mall is located, saw its median incomes shrink more than anywhere else in the country, falling 27 percent between 1994 and 2014, according to the Pew Research Center. Many manufacturing jobs have been automated, and the new jobs that have come in are lower-paying ones in call centers and in retail, according to Springfield’s mayor, Warren Copeland. That hurts the city, which charges its own local income tax. “If retail starts going away, that’s a new hit. That’s a serious threat that we recognize,” he said.

States that have seen manufacturing companies depart are bearing much of the brunt of the retail closures, according to Dadayan’s research. She tabulated where Macys, Kmart, and Sears have announced in the past year that they are planning to close stores, and found that Pennsylvania will have the most of those total store closings, at 16. Ohio and Michigan have the second-highest number, at 15 each, alongside Florida. Other states that have bigger populations have much lower combined closings. California, for example, only has eight.

The closures raise the question of what state and local governments will do if retail continues to evaporate. Already, many local governments are attempting to raise taxes to make up for budget shortfalls. Springfield asked voters to approve an income tax in November; the measure failed. The sales-tax rate at both the local and state levels has been creeping up in Ohio as governments try to raise taxes to make up for declines, according to Jon Honeck, the acting director of the Greater Ohio Policy Center, a local think tank. Ohio has also cut back on revenue-sharing between states and local governments since the election of Governor John Kasich in 2010, making it more difficult for local governments to make ends meet. “Some have just cut services, since the state is not going to help them out,” Honeck said.

The decline of brick-and-mortar retail creates social challenges in addition to financial ones. When people aren’t going to stores to shop, and are instead shopping online, the vibrancy of local communities that once depended on foot traffic fades. The Upper Valley Mall was eerily quiet when I walked through it on a recent weekday night.

The decline of brick-and-mortar retail isn’t hitting every region equally. As stores close in less-populated areas and governments struggle to find revenue sources, some big cities are actually opening more retail stores, Honeck said. This could be because areas like Columbus are adding to their population while other cities, like Springfield, are shrinking. Shoppers are also increasingly driving to new malls in bigger cities, rather than shop close to home, he said.

Columbus also has a higher labor-force participation rate and lower poverty rates than other regions throughout Ohio. And developers are paying attention. While dead and dying malls are scattered around Ohio, a new outlet mall recently opened near Columbus. And counties with big, new malls collect a higher share of sales tax than those with older or dying properties, Honeck’s group found. “The large municipalities are really starting to pull away from the small or mid-sized ones,” Torey Hollingsworth, the manager of research and policy at the Greater Ohio Policy Center, said.

There might be a fix for the discrepancy in sales-tax collections: Congress could act to require online retailers to collect sales tax and remit it to the states. National legislators have debated bills that would allow states to collect income taxes on online sales, but efforts have thus far been ad hoc. “We are living in a completely different society, and I think there should be tax reform on a Congressional level, amended for the collection of online sales tax,” Dadayan, of the Rockefeller Institute, said. “This should be taken care of—otherwise state and local governments are going to suffer significantly in the coming years.” This won’t, of course, address the challenges that many of these struggling regions will face in upcoming years as jobs disappear and retailers continue to shut down. Those are bigger challenges, for which there are no clear policy solutions. But helping these shrinking regions collect sales tax from the people who still live there, and who still buy things, may be a start.



So let me take a look into my crystal ball to tell you how I see this playing out.

Taxes will be collected on internet sales, and likely at a higher rate than you'll pay at brick and mortars. This is due to the additional revenue being "lost" by those making sales not paying other taxes within the state they are doing business.

In the mean time your other taxes will increase to cover the shortfall. But do you think those increases will go away once they get the internet money?

And when the taxes do kick in on the internet side, it may very well be cheaper to buy locally. But you can't.....the local guy went out of business.

We can see a good example of this in brick and mortar itself. Let's take Toys R Us for example. Once upon a time there were small toy stores. Along comes a mega chain. Many think that's great. Bigger selection, lower prices. America baby! They run the small guys out of business. They're just about the only game in town. Now they're gone. The small stores before them are gone. If I want to look at toys I'm limited to a few isles at Walmart or Target.

I don't call that a win in any sense.


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Posts: 15696 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: September 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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when the big one's ( anchors) close at the
malls that are just hanging on , thats pretty much the axe on the neck of the whole mall.

some malls have three or four anchors,
but there are four malls in E.Iowa that could very well be gone , by this time next year





Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency.



Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first
 
Posts: 54504 | Location: Henry County , Il | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj:
quote:
Local businesses aren't an abstract they're us, your neighbor, your family.


All of which spend money locally. It's a downward spiral once it starts. If you want to see what happens when businesses cease to exist, check out Detroit.

A local business buys goods and services from other local businesses. Their employees spend money locally. Taxes are collected locally. Once they are gone, that money stops.

A few businesses start to close, and it starts impacting other businesses. Those businesses then begin to fail, and so on.

Property values suffer. School districts suffer. Public services suffer. Fewer people want to live there. Rinse and repeat.

Small business is the life blood of this nation. You loose small business and you're done.

Sure, it's a downward spiral once it starts.
But it's already long past the start.
What's the solution?



"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 23949 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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amazon has an impact , thats for sure,

but almost no one in the b&m stores are upping their efforts to achieve an "A" game,

that will tell the customers how important they are, and get them to want to shop locally





Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency.



Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first
 
Posts: 54504 | Location: Henry County , Il | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
quarter MOA visionary
Picture of smschulz
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj:
You guys still aren't getting it. This isn't just about brick and mortar businesses being in business, or adapting and surviving.

This is about your communities, and what will happen to them as these businesses close. What is currently happening to them due to the decrease in tax revenue.

You guys are looking at this one step ahead. You need to be about 4 or 5 steps further in your thinking. There is a huge trickle down impact from this trend.


Pretty sure it is about surviving and adapting and yes there can be an impact on some local communities especially the smaller ones.
However, it does not mean that the businessman should ignore the current business environment.
Not many qualified local retail salesman-oriented establishments left where a better educated and competent salesman can survive.
A lot of that is taken away by the educated or semi-educated consumer and the "Internet" as a source.
Of course local B&M costs and inventory controls play a huge factor too.
So what does leave > the consumer taking the path of least resistance namely buying some products online.
But that doesn't preclude the same local retailer can join in, adapt and use some of these methods for their own welfare.
I don't see it as an either or situation.
YMMV
 
Posts: 22860 | Location: Houston, TX | Registered: June 11, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Rail-less
and
Tail-less
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj:
You guys still aren't getting it. This isn't just about brick and mortar businesses being in business, or adapting and surviving.

This is about your communities, and what will happen to them as these businesses close. What is currently happening to them due to the decrease in tax revenue.

You guys are looking at this one step ahead. You need to be about 4 or 5 steps further in your thinking. There is a huge trickle down impact from this trend.


Well eventually amazon and others like it will have warehouses in towns all over the country so those people can go work there. I’m not going to pay more money for worse service and less convenience. Retail specialty stores with superb customer service will survive as they should. Those who don’t...well you already know. If anyone is being short sided it’s you. Lots of people lost work due to the industrial revolution. Those who learned to adapt, innovate, and overcome did. Those who didn’t died. Doing things simply because it’s the way we’ve always done it is an asinine notion and a crutch. Sorry not sorry.

Retail will always exist in poorer communities where credit cards, stable addresses, and even internet usage are almost non-existent. Dollar stores are popping up fast.


_______________________________________________
Use thumb-size bullets to create fist-size holes.
 
Posts: 13190 | Location: Charlotte, NC | Registered: May 07, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Grab SKS,
go innawoods
Picture of mrmoneybags
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by a1abdj:
You guys still aren't getting it. This isn't just about brick and mortar businesses being in business, or adapting and surviving.

This is about your communities, and what will happen to them as these businesses close. What is currently happening to them due to the decrease in tax revenue.

You guys are looking at this one step ahead. You need to be about 4 or 5 steps further in your thinking. There is a huge trickle down impact from this trend.


Well what do you want us to do about it, bud? There are some stores locally owned that I will occasionally patronize (jewelry, tools, clothing), but for most durable goods, I'm shopping online. Why?

Take auto parts for example: I can go to auto zone & buy a part for $X, and usually get zero help or tips on the installation. Or I can go to 1aauto.com, pay $0.5X for the same part, and visit their immense instructional video archive to show me how to install it.

Or we can take guns as an example. I know every shop differs, but the guy that owns my local shop has acted like a dick to myself & many I know, so he's not getting my business any more. Not to mention his guns are all priced at least $100 higher than anything online (including transfer fees), and his ammunition is at LEAST 1.5x the price of comparable ammo online. I could understand charging a premium for oddball guns & ammo, but this place has 9mm for $14/box and acts like it's a good deal.

So what are we supposed to do? Put up with shitty services & bad prices to what, "benefit out community"? I don't think so. I'm actually thinking this is a great opportunity to trim some of the brain-dead shit that state governments do out of their budgets.
 
Posts: 1913 | Location: 42003 | Registered: November 03, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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