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A day late, and
a dollar short
Picture of Warhorse
posted
I see them being mentioned in the dog attack thread. So as not to hijack that thread, let's discuss them here.

Why have they fallen out of favor by most police agency's in this country? Seems to me that they were very effective tools in controlling violent situations.


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Posts: 13668 | Location: Michigan | Registered: July 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I've got a cunning plan
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I suspect they have fallen out of favor in places where they’ve been made illegal because, it might be considered indefensible. Within law enforcement it’s fallen off because it was used to strike people in the head and that’s no longer kosher.
 
Posts: 987 | Location: U.S.A. | Registered: October 23, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
semi-reformed sailor
Picture of MikeinNC
posted Hide Post
They were very effective at ending a fight.

But they tend to split someone's scalp when applied...almost every time.

Soooo, whack to the noggin=works, but looks really really bad because -split scalp and lots of blood...

And I've been attacked by two different dogs when I was a cop and there is no way I would have went for a smack to it's head with a sap or a PR24 or a standard nightstick, and DEFINITELY would not have used an ASP (they are worthless)



"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein

“You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020

“A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker
 
Posts: 11247 | Location: Temple, Texas! | Registered: October 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
It's not you,
it's me.
Picture of RAMIUS
posted Hide Post
I just figured they were too effective...I.e. Guaranteed fractured skull effective.
 
Posts: 7016 | Location: Right outside Philly | Registered: September 08, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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They are illegal and have been for 20 or 25 years. People who think that Saps have a place in modern LE are completely out of touch with reality.




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"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 37084 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
posted Hide Post
Nowadays, striking a subject in the head with a baton, sap, or other blunt instrument is considered deadly force, meaning it can only be done to protect myself or another from imminent serious injury or death.

And if I'm justified in using deadly force, there are much more effective ways of applying it than wading in to contact distance and hitting someone in the head.
 
Posts: 32430 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MikeinNC:
They were very effective at ending a fight.

But they tend to split someone's scalp when applied...almost every time.

Soooo, whack to the noggin=works, but looks really really bad because -split scalp and lots of blood...

And I've been attacked by two different dogs when I was a cop and there is no way I would have went for a smack to it's head with a sap or a PR24 or a standard nightstick, and DEFINITELY would not have used an ASP (they are worthless)


Still have my sap somewhere. They were outlawed may years ago. ASP were worthless.
 
Posts: 7011 | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Bill Jordan said he preferred to shoot a guy rather than hit him with a sap or nightstick, because it was easier to convince a judge and jury that he didn't shoot the guy too hard.


--------------------------
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
-- H L Mencken

I always prefer reality when I can figure out what it is.
-- JALLEN 10/18/18
 
Posts: 9127 | Location: Illinois farm country | Registered: November 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ignored facts
still exist
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But alas, the homeless population here often carry a smiley. A padlock at the end of a short chain.

"what, this. My bikelock."


----------------------
Let's Go Brandon!
 
Posts: 10861 | Location: 45 miles from the Pacific Ocean | Registered: February 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by radioman:
But alas, the homeless population here often carry a smiley. A padlock at the end of a short chain.

"what, this. My bikelock."


Yes, but homeless people very seldom get civil rights charges filed against them for excessive force.
 
Posts: 7011 | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A day late, and
a dollar short
Picture of Warhorse
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by newtoSig765:
Bill Jordan said he preferred to shoot a guy rather than hit him with a sap or nightstick, because it was easier to convince a judge and jury that he didn't shoot the guy too hard.

Big Grin


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Posts: 13668 | Location: Michigan | Registered: July 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
For real?
Picture of Chowser
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My old chief had one on his desk (he started in the 50s) but we never had them. As stated by others the head is a no strike zone unless deadly force is warranted.

We now have other things on our belt, taser (i wish!), baton, o.c. Sadly I’m still a hands-on guy. I’m getting too old for this and need to rethink my ways.



Not minority enough!
 
Posts: 7993 | Location: Cleveland, OH | Registered: August 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of bigmule
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Over the years I have found several. 5 or 6 at least.
All the leather is usually dried and brittle or non existent.
My staff first think its a door stop of some sort, then I show them the power of the sap...and the carve out the legal ramifications of having one these days.

Each sap have shown some pretty ornate metal work on the lanyard end.
Swivels and cross checking etc. neat.

Regardless, getting whacked with one anywhere is not my idea of a good time either.
I never bothered to get them rewrapped. (Knowing it’s a fine line between collecting and possessing,like none).And it would simply make me want to keep one around. And that could be a bad thing.
 
Posts: 2330 | Registered: July 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Slayer of Agapanthus


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There was a similar thread some years ago. IIRC, the consensus was that the risk of permenant brain damage was unacceptable.


"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye". The Little Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupery, pilot and author, lost on mission, July 1944, Med Theatre.
 
Posts: 5952 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: September 14, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Membership has its privileges
Picture of P-220
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Somewhere I have my Grandfathers sap. He retired in the 60's from the Toledo Police Department. As others have said, the leather is dried, cracked and crumbling.

In the 70's, I bought a Sap from a gun store in Norwood, Ohio.

They are very, very dangerous, IMO and if it were to be taken away from you in a fight, you would be screwed.


Niech Zyje P-220

Steve
 
Posts: 36834 | Location: 45174 | Registered: December 09, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Sadly I’m still a hands-on guy. I’m getting too old for this and need to rethink my ways.


Verbal judo is your friend.
 
Posts: 7011 | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just Hanging Around
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Is this what you guys are talking about?

https://www.defensedevices.com...er-sap-slappers.html
 
Posts: 3220 | Location: NE Kansas | Registered: February 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by Muddflap:
Is this what you guys are talking about?

https://www.defensedevices.com...er-sap-slappers.html


I was wondering the same, when I see Saps I assume the weighted gloves, so I was confused by a few of the comments in this thread until I remembered that thing...


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The first 100 people to make it out alive...get to live.
 
Posts: 1277 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: April 16, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Muddflap:
Is this what you guys are talking about?

https://www.defensedevices.com...er-sap-slappers.html


Yes, at least I am.
 
Posts: 7011 | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Membership has its privileges
Picture of P-220
posted Hide Post
Yes, that is what I am referring to.


Niech Zyje P-220

Steve
 
Posts: 36834 | Location: 45174 | Registered: December 09, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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