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P0303 on a 2004 Sienna. Any most likely causes? UPDATE: not plug or coil Login/Join 
Team Apathy
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quote:
Originally posted by HRK:
Call around junk yards see if you can find a used engine from any toyota that uses that same block, swap it out trade the old in for core if they want.

or, drive it, it's just a little off idle stumble, live with it and don't throw any more green at it until it pukes, park it, walk away...


The mechanic said he found a junkyard engine with about 75k and a 3 month warranty locally for around $800 or so. Plus labor, which I think he said was around 17 hours. Still a hefty price tag.

Honestly, it runs pretty darn well except for the occasional misfire that started all this. I’m leaning towards the following.

1) as you suggest, live with it. In CA vehicles have to pass emissions testing every 2 years. A CEL will prevent it from passing, but it’s not due for over a year. Will it last a year?

2) Carmax it.
 
Posts: 6354 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by egregore:
Leakage out of the exhaust valve? There might still be a small chance, if not of saving it, buying it some more time. The valve cover has to come off to check it, but this engine has a "shim over bucket" valve adjustment, not self-adjusting hydraulic lifters. If the valve clearance has closed up, the exhaust valve will be held off its seat a little bit and you will lose compression. However, not only is shim valve adjustment a PITA, decreased valve clearance can only be caused by the valve receding into the head. So there is not only that problem, but if this has gone on long enough, the valve would be burnt anyway. But seeing if the clearance is too tight could still be useful from a diagnostic standpoint.



If this were my vehicle, this is exactly what I would do. If the valves are indeed tight and can be brought back into specifications, it might be worth doing this. Won't be so costly, and the engine can be run for many more miles.
 
Posts: 5197 | Location: Manteca, CA | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Shifferbrains:
quote:
Originally posted by egregore:
Leakage out of the exhaust valve? There might still be a small chance, if not of saving it, buying it some more time. The valve cover has to come off to check it, but this engine has a "shim over bucket" valve adjustment, not self-adjusting hydraulic lifters. If the valve clearance has closed up, the exhaust valve will be held off its seat a little bit and you will lose compression. However, not only is shim valve adjustment a PITA, decreased valve clearance can only be caused by the valve receding into the head. So there is not only that problem, but if this has gone on long enough, the valve would be burnt anyway. But seeing if the clearance is too tight could still be useful from a diagnostic standpoint.



If this were my vehicle, this is exactly what I would do. If the valves are indeed tight and can be brought back into specifications, it might be worth doing this. Won't be so costly, and the engine can be run for many more miles.


So this is done with the head in place but valve cover off? Does the cam have to come off? My buddy who has been helping me is a former GM tech so some of this Toyota stuff is new to him. I remember he mentioned that he isn’t a fan of the shin system used on Toyota’s but he was willing to replace the stem seals. Maybe this is in his skill range. Any idea how many hours it is to complete? My “regular” mechanic didn’t mention it as an option.
 
Posts: 6354 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Shorted to Atmosphere
Picture of Shifferbrains
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quote:
Originally posted by thumperfbc:
quote:
Originally posted by Shifferbrains:
quote:
Originally posted by egregore:
Leakage out of the exhaust valve? There might still be a small chance, if not of saving it, buying it some more time. The valve cover has to come off to check it, but this engine has a "shim over bucket" valve adjustment, not self-adjusting hydraulic lifters. If the valve clearance has closed up, the exhaust valve will be held off its seat a little bit and you will lose compression. However, not only is shim valve adjustment a PITA, decreased valve clearance can only be caused by the valve receding into the head. So there is not only that problem, but if this has gone on long enough, the valve would be burnt anyway. But seeing if the clearance is too tight could still be useful from a diagnostic standpoint.



If this were my vehicle, this is exactly what I would do. If the valves are indeed tight and can be brought back into specifications, it might be worth doing this. Won't be so costly, and the engine can be run for many more miles.


So this is done with the head in place but valve cover off? Does the cam have to come off? My buddy who has been helping me is a former GM tech so some of this Toyota stuff is new to him. I remember he mentioned that he isn’t a fan of the shin system used on Toyota’s but he was willing to replace the stem seals. Maybe this is in his skill range. Any idea how many hours it is to complete? My “regular” mechanic didn’t mention it as an option.


If he is going to do the stem seals, he has to remove the cams, buckets and shims. Before doing all that, have him measure the valve clearances. Most times you can replace the shims on a 'shim over bucket' without removing the cams.

Do you get a nice puff of blue smoke when the engine is cold started? does the engine use an excessive amount of oil between changes? If not, a valve adjustment may take care of the missing on cylinder 3 and may not really need to replace the guide seals. That is if the clearances are tight. If the clearances are ok, then the heads will have to be removed to do a valve job.

This is where you have to look at the alternatives, the cost of a valve job, the cost of the junk yard engine, or getting rid of the vehicle.

You can just drive it like you said, but the piper will have to be paid when it comes time for the smog inspection. Also, be aware that you are potentially damaging the catalytic converter by running the engine with the misfire.
 
Posts: 5197 | Location: Manteca, CA | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Shifferbrains:
quote:
Originally posted by thumperfbc:
quote:
Originally posted by Shifferbrains:
quote:
Originally posted by egregore:
Leakage out of the exhaust valve? There might still be a small chance, if not of saving it, buying it some more time. The valve cover has to come off to check it, but this engine has a "shim over bucket" valve adjustment, not self-adjusting hydraulic lifters. If the valve clearance has closed up, the exhaust valve will be held off its seat a little bit and you will lose compression. However, not only is shim valve adjustment a PITA, decreased valve clearance can only be caused by the valve receding into the head. So there is not only that problem, but if this has gone on long enough, the valve would be burnt anyway. But seeing if the clearance is too tight could still be useful from a diagnostic standpoint.



If this were my vehicle, this is exactly what I would do. If the valves are indeed tight and can be brought back into specifications, it might be worth doing this. Won't be so costly, and the engine can be run for many more miles.


So this is done with the head in place but valve cover off? Does the cam have to come off? My buddy who has been helping me is a former GM tech so some of this Toyota stuff is new to him. I remember he mentioned that he isn’t a fan of the shin system used on Toyota’s but he was willing to replace the stem seals. Maybe this is in his skill range. Any idea how many hours it is to complete? My “regular” mechanic didn’t mention it as an option.


If he is going to do the stem seals, he has to remove the cams, buckets and shims. Before doing all that, have him measure the valve clearances. Most times you can replace the shims on a 'shim over bucket' without removing the cams.

Do you get a nice puff of blue smoke when the engine is cold started? does the engine use an excessive amount of oil between changes? If not, a valve adjustment may take care of the missing on cylinder 3 and may not really need to replace the guide seals. That is if the clearances are tight. If the clearances are ok, then the heads will have to be removed to do a valve job.

This is where you have to look at the alternatives, the cost of a valve job, the cost of the junk yard engine, or getting rid of the vehicle.

You can just drive it like you said, but the piper will have to be paid when it comes time for the smog inspection. Also, be aware that you are potentially damaging the catalytic converter by running the engine with the misfire.


I sent him the text by egregore a few minutes ago and he says it makes sense but he’s never done it and doesn’t know how.

Do you still do side jobs?

No blue smoke, no excessive oil consumption. They didn’t report it as lowwhen I had it changed a month ago.
 
Posts: 6354 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Shorted to Atmosphere
Picture of Shifferbrains
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by thumperfbc:
quote:
Originally posted by Shifferbrains:
quote:
Originally posted by thumperfbc:
quote:
Originally posted by Shifferbrains:
quote:
Originally posted by egregore:
Leakage out of the exhaust valve? There might still be a small chance, if not of saving it, buying it some more time. The valve cover has to come off to check it, but this engine has a "shim over bucket" valve adjustment, not self-adjusting hydraulic lifters. If the valve clearance has closed up, the exhaust valve will be held off its seat a little bit and you will lose compression. However, not only is shim valve adjustment a PITA, decreased valve clearance can only be caused by the valve receding into the head. So there is not only that problem, but if this has gone on long enough, the valve would be burnt anyway. But seeing if the clearance is too tight could still be useful from a diagnostic standpoint.



If this were my vehicle, this is exactly what I would do. If the valves are indeed tight and can be brought back into specifications, it might be worth doing this. Won't be so costly, and the engine can be run for many more miles.


So this is done with the head in place but valve cover off? Does the cam have to come off? My buddy who has been helping me is a former GM tech so some of this Toyota stuff is new to him. I remember he mentioned that he isn’t a fan of the shin system used on Toyota’s but he was willing to replace the stem seals. Maybe this is in his skill range. Any idea how many hours it is to complete? My “regular” mechanic didn’t mention it as an option.


If he is going to do the stem seals, he has to remove the cams, buckets and shims. Before doing all that, have him measure the valve clearances. Most times you can replace the shims on a 'shim over bucket' without removing the cams.

Do you get a nice puff of blue smoke when the engine is cold started? does the engine use an excessive amount of oil between changes? If not, a valve adjustment may take care of the missing on cylinder 3 and may not really need to replace the guide seals. That is if the clearances are tight. If the clearances are ok, then the heads will have to be removed to do a valve job.

This is where you have to look at the alternatives, the cost of a valve job, the cost of the junk yard engine, or getting rid of the vehicle.

You can just drive it like you said, but the piper will have to be paid when it comes time for the smog inspection. Also, be aware that you are potentially damaging the catalytic converter by running the engine with the misfire.


I sent him the text by egregore a few minutes ago and he says it makes sense but he’s never done it and doesn’t know how.

Do you still do side jobs?


Right now I am slammed. With my commute and taking an accelerated course load for my bachelors degree, I have virtually no time to work on even my vehicles. I have an '09 Crown Vic that I bought from work that has been sitting in my garage for several months.
 
Posts: 5197 | Location: Manteca, CA | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Mike, I sent you the valve adjustment procedure to your listed email. This is from Alldata, and should be a huge help to your friend.
 
Posts: 5197 | Location: Manteca, CA | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
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quote:
Originally posted by Shifferbrains:
Mike, I sent you the valve adjustment procedure to your listed email. This is from Alldata, and should be a huge help to your friend.


Thanks!

I’m surprised they are selling crown Vic’s. We’ve given up on the other options and are sending the CV’s down south for refurbishment.
 
Posts: 6354 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Thank you
Very little
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Take it to a auto parts chain. Borrow the diagnostic tool. Clear all the codes the drive it to see how long it will stay off. If it stays off long enough you clear the codes go have it smog tested get the ok and drive off



 
Posts: 23244 | Location: Florida | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by thumperfbc:
quote:
Originally posted by Shifferbrains:
Mike, I sent you the valve adjustment procedure to your listed email. This is from Alldata, and should be a huge help to your friend.


Thanks!

I’m surprised they are selling crown Vic’s. We’ve given up on the other options and are sending the CV’s down south for refurbishment.


The Crown Vics we don't use for Levi's Stadium duty are getting auctioned off. We have mostly Interceptor SUV's and Tahoes now. We are getting 3 new Interceptor SUV Hybrids real soon. My boss says they really scoot.
 
Posts: 5197 | Location: Manteca, CA | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
His diet consists of black
coffee, and sarcasm.
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I have actually not done this type of valve adjustment. There is almost never an actual need for it. This being the rear bank, with the engine tilted away from you and against the firewall, it is going to be, if not impossible, at least very tough. Anyway, this is the tool used: https://www.amazon.com/Schley-...u%2Caps%2C141&sr=1-1

If the clearance is too tight, you install a thinner shim; if too loose, a thicker one. After the shim is removed, determine its thickness, either by mic-ing it or comparing the number to a chart, and calculate the thickness of the new shim to get your desired clearance. Motorcycles with DOHC have used this for many years, but - at least with old-style "Universal Japanese Motorcycles" - they have room to work.
 
Posts: 27835 | Location: Johnson City/Elizabethton, TN | Registered: April 28, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
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My buddy is perusing the Alldata. Thanks again for that.

From what I understand you are saying is the valve may be misadjusted resulting in the valve not closing all the way which would result in the loss of compression revealed by the leakdown. I get that.

But it doesn’t explain oil in the combustion chamber. If we assume the rings are intact, as the mechanic believes, then we have oil leaking through the valve seals or the valve guides are worn to the point that the seal can’t seal. Correct?

So we are looking at potentially multiple issues.
 
Posts: 6354 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by thumperfbc:
My buddy is perusing the Alldata. Thanks again for that.

From what I understand you are saying is the valve may be misadjusted resulting in the valve not closing all the way which would result in the loss of compression revealed by the leakdown. I get that.

But it doesn’t explain oil in the combustion chamber. If we assume the rings are intact, as the mechanic believes, then we have oil leaking through the valve seals or the valve guides are worn to the point that the seal can’t seal. Correct?

So we are looking at potentially multiple issues.


What I'm saying based on the evidence we have right now(no blue smoke on cold start-up, and no major signs of oil consumption) is that the oil present is not the cause of the misfire, but the valves not fully seating is. If the valves can be corrected by a valve adjustment, the presence of oil may be a non-issue considering the age of the engine.

As was brought up before, the oil may be coming from the PCV system and not the seals. Usually there will be multiple cylinders with leaking seals as they will tend to degrade at the same rate. Of course, if the valve guide on this cylinder is worn more than the others, this can explain the oil present.

Bottom line, if the valves are indeed tight and can be corrected, it may not be worth the extra expense and time to change the seals if there isn't real evidence that the engine is burning oil. Especially with the mileage on this engine. The evidence is pointing to the valves causing the misfire, not oil fouling.
 
Posts: 5197 | Location: Manteca, CA | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Shifferbrains:

What I'm saying based on the evidence we have right now(no blue smoke on cold start-up, and no major signs of oil consumption) is that the oil present is not the cause of the misfire, but the valves not fully seating is. If the valves can be corrected by a valve adjustment, the presence of oil may be a non-issue considering the age of the engine.

As was brought up before, the oil may be coming from the PCV system and not the seals. Usually there will be multiple cylinders with leaking seals as they will tend to degrade at the same rate. Of course, if the valve guide on this cylinder is worn more than the others, this can explain the oil present.

Bottom line, if the valves are indeed tight and can be corrected, it may not be worth the extra expense and time to change the seals if there isn't real evidence that the engine is burning oil. Especially with the mileage on this engine. The evidence is pointing to the valves causing the misfire, not oil fouling.


Ok, thanks for the clarification. Essentially you are suggesting that the clearance be measure (feeler gauge?) and any found out of spec should be rectified. This is done by changing shins that appear to sit on top of some sort of cover on the valve spring and is directly pressed on by the cam.

Right?

If my buddy was willing to do the seals, I can talk him into this I think. While in no expert, this doesn’t seem to be as big of a job. Seals requires the cams and the “bucket” and springs getbremoved while these adjustments can be done with the cam intact.


Am I getting it?
 
Posts: 6354 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Shorted to Atmosphere
Picture of Shifferbrains
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by thumperfbc:
quote:
Originally posted by Shifferbrains:

What I'm saying based on the evidence we have right now(no blue smoke on cold start-up, and no major signs of oil consumption) is that the oil present is not the cause of the misfire, but the valves not fully seating is. If the valves can be corrected by a valve adjustment, the presence of oil may be a non-issue considering the age of the engine.

As was brought up before, the oil may be coming from the PCV system and not the seals. Usually there will be multiple cylinders with leaking seals as they will tend to degrade at the same rate. Of course, if the valve guide on this cylinder is worn more than the others, this can explain the oil present.

Bottom line, if the valves are indeed tight and can be corrected, it may not be worth the extra expense and time to change the seals if there isn't real evidence that the engine is burning oil. Especially with the mileage on this engine. The evidence is pointing to the valves causing the misfire, not oil fouling.


Ok, thanks for the clarification. Essentially you are suggesting that the clearance be measure (feeler gauge?) and any found out of spec should be rectified. This is done by changing shins that appear to sit on top of some sort of cover on the valve spring and is directly pressed on by the cam.

Right?

If my buddy was willing to do the seals, I can talk him into this I think. While in no expert, this doesn’t seem to be as big of a job. Seals requires the cams and the “bucket” and springs getbremoved while these adjustments can be done with the cam intact.


Am I getting it?



Yes, you got it.
 
Posts: 5197 | Location: Manteca, CA | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
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The A/C has been acting up since the leakdown test was done. Is there something that he may have forgotten to put back together following the test? Sometimes it works great as it had, sometimes the air is not cold at all, particularly at idle.
 
Posts: 6354 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by thumperfbc:
The A/C has been acting up since the leakdown test was done. Is there something that he may have forgotten to put back together following the test? Sometimes it works great as it had, sometimes the air is not cold at all, particularly at idle.


Check to make sure the radiator cooling fans are on when the A/C is on and at idle.
 
Posts: 5197 | Location: Manteca, CA | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Shifferbrains:
quote:
Originally posted by thumperfbc:
The A/C has been acting up since the leakdown test was done. Is there something that he may have forgotten to put back together following the test? Sometimes it works great as it had, sometimes the air is not cold at all, particularly at idle.


Check to make sure the radiator cooling fans are on when the A/C is on and at idle.


Both cooling fans are operational when then the van is in idle and A/C is on. Start driving and within a few blocks it got cold. Idle again for more than a red light and it gets warm again. At one point on the drive home it went warm while we were cruising down the road.

Never had these issues before the leak down.
 
Posts: 6354 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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