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P0303 on a 2004 Sienna. Any most likely causes? UPDATE: not plug or coil Login/Join 
H.O.F.I.S
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quote:
Originally posted by thumperfbc:
So, I had hoped to take the suspect injector off cylinder 3 and switch it with cylinder 4... but I didn’t realize the injector was underneath the intake as well.

If the intake had to come back off, I’m considering just replacing it without doing any trouble shooting...

An injector from the dealer is $180. From Oreilly it is $130. From on online source, for a factory injector that’s been rebuilt here in the U.S. it’s only $20, with a couple day delay.

So if my buddy is going to pull the intake off AGAIN, why not just put the rebuilt one in? Anybody wat to confirm or deny the value of that thought?

If I’m doing cylinder 3, should I also do 1 and 5 since they are only $20?

Finally, is there anything else under there that might just consider switching out?


How about we do a compression check?



"I'm sorry, did I break your concentration"?
 
Posts: 1278 | Location: Above water | Registered: September 16, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
His diet consists of black
coffee, and sarcasm.
Picture of egregore
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Since something outside the norm or usual is apparently going on here, a compression check is a good suggestion. All the cylinders should be checked, really, so you can compare known good ones to your suspect one. As for a $20 rebuilt injector, I won't put such a thing even in my own car, let alone somebody else's.
 
Posts: 22460 | Location: Johnson City/Elizabethton, TN | Registered: April 28, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Technically Adaptive
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Considering it smooths out after a few seconds, why would you consider a injector. Have you looked for traces of crusty coolant between the head and block on that bank?. A misfire in open loop then clears out after it's in fuel control...
If you were to check trims and find nothing out of the order I would look at something mechanical. After a hot soak cool down there could be some coolant in that cylinder that burns off after startup. Best thing to to when you have the intake off again is to borescope that cylinder with the cooling system pressurized. It could be a very small leak that is not enough to see out the tailpipe, the CAT would burn it off shortly after startup anyway.
The scan tool , pressure tester, borescope and knowledge stuff is why the you are getting "overcharged". for diagnostics at the few good shops left nowadays Smile
 
Posts: 742 | Location: Willcox, AZ | Registered: September 24, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
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Injectors tested out ok, unfortunately. We keep getting deeper, more complicated, and more expensive.

After pulling out the injectors we pulled the plug again... oil on the electrode. Ceramic end was clean I am told.

That indicates valve stem seals or problem with a ring, correct?

Not liking the way this is headed.
 
Posts: 5421 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Cigar Nerd
Picture of Jaywendland1981
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Smooths out off idle, sounds like an air leak. Checking fuel trims is the best way to verify, next step is finding the air leak. I did not see the year or engine size, if it is a 3.3l or 3.5l, was the intake gasket a metal plate or rubber O-rings?


There will be whores, tits and sex.
 
Posts: 4305 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: January 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaywendland1981:
Smooths out off idle, sounds like an air leak. Checking fuel trims is the best way to verify, next step is finding the air leak. I did not see the year or engine size, if it is a 3.3l or 3.5l, was the intake gasket a metal plate or rubber O-rings?


Checking fuel trims at the tine the misfire was triggered? I have that data on the scanner. I remember the short term numbers were approx b1 -9.4 b2 -3.9.

Long term they were both around +10.5, give or take .5

It’s the 3.3 in a 04 Sienna AWD. The intake plenum gasket is rubber o-ring type and was replaced the first time we pulled the intake off.

However, oil on the plug electrode is not an air leak. I don’t think.
 
Posts: 5421 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Thank you
Very little
Picture of HRK
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Oil on the plug is most likely a valve seal.

Compression test will let you know if it's the rings,

Do a compression test on the one side only, that way you have a baseline for the engine from two good cylinders.

With the right tool and an air compressor you should be able to change the valve seals without pulling the head should your friend choose to do so.

The video below shows the work, although if you are only doing one side it cuts the work in half.

JMO if you are doing 3 you need to go ahead and do 1 and 5 while it's apart, no since doing one cyl and finding you need to do the others 6 months down the road. The seals are not expensive, it's the labor to get to them.

Since 1/3/5 are on the bad side, which is where it always happens you could do the even numbered bank at the same time, the seals are cheap and 2/4/6 are easy to get to, and you have everything apart.

Yer gonna need a bigger gift card and a 12 pack though...




Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R_v3vn0rNo



"My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them." Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 13746 | Location: FL | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Technically Adaptive
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Trims should be around zero, plus or minus 5. It's adding fuel. If the PCV ties into #3 intake runner, I would be looking at that, would be a good source of oil for that cylinder.
 
Posts: 742 | Location: Willcox, AZ | Registered: September 24, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
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Thanks guys.

After having the cylinder head explained, via diagram, by my buddy I have a better idea what’s going on, or what could be.

My real mechanic is going to do the leak down test on Thursday. Hopefully it passes that and confirms good rings and good valve seats.

If that’s the case then my buddy is willing to do the valve seals. His gift card is increasing in size by the day.

When I was on the phone with the real mechanic he through some real terrifying numbers at me if it’s NOT the seals and the heads need rebuilding.

He didn’t bother talking about cost if the rings are bad but said we might as well consider a rebuilt engine. I’m praying fervently for a passed leak down test. I can still escape, possibly, without spending a ton. I had O’Reilly order the valve seals. Under $30 for the whole thing, both banks. I assume I should order the cover gasket as well? I believe it comes with the spark plug seal too.

The tentative plan, *when* it passes the leakdown, is to just do the seals and hope the guides aren’t the problem. My buddy says they don’t usually cause problems and the seals are usually the culprit.

Of course, we started this with “the coils are likely the problem”.

Oh well.

PCV valve? Should I just add that to the list if we do the seals?
 
Posts: 5421 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Technically Adaptive
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PCV valve doesn't cost much, easy to replace.
You do realize that you can actually look into the cylinder with a borescope style camera. Can see if the valve seals are leaking down the back of the valves or if the cylinder bore is scored. Some things have gotten easier to check on engines over the years.
 
Posts: 742 | Location: Willcox, AZ | Registered: September 24, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"Member"
Picture of cas
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Not that a sample one of means anything... I had a car that overheated, BAD. (so bad it melted the spark plug boots and vacuum hoses) After that the valve guide seals leaked badly. It would smoke quite a bit when you started it but would burn off and stop. It never missed a beat though.


I've been watching the thread as I'm currently going through a similar issue with my car, two misfiring cylinders. A couple plug wells have oil in them from a slow leak, but that's not causing it. Both missing cylinder share a coil pack, but that wasn't the problem either. Most recently I put coat of silicon grease on the spark plug boots and the problem seems to have gone away. To my mind the least likely, but simplest thing seems to have been the issue. So despite looking fine, it needs plug wires.


_____________________________________________________
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Posts: 16938 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
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It’s at the *real* mechanic today where he’s going to do a leakdown test. As I understand it, if it passes the test then we know the rings are ok and the valve seats are ok and it suggests that the valve seals are indeed the problem. If that is the scenario my coworker is willing to pull the valve cover, pull the cams, and replace the seals. That seems to be the best case scenario at this time.

There isn’t really an indication, that I see, that the valve seats are bad... but if they are, it means the heads must be pulled and rebuilt... a likely death sentence for the car.

If it fails due to a bad ring, which is a possibility (again, oil on the plug electrode), then that also probably means the end of the vehicle.

I really really need it to pass leakdown. We bought this van, in large part, because they commonly are good for 200000, even 250000 miles. I will be exceedingly irked if it is done at 150k.
 
Posts: 5421 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm perplexed. A leak down test is relatively easy to do. So, if you need your real mechanic to do that, why don't you take it to your real mechanic to just properly diagnose and fix the vehicle, rather than just throwing more and more parts and time at the engine and hoping one of them will fix it?
 
Posts: 17930 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
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quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:
I'm perplexed. A leak down test is relatively easy to do. So, if you need your real mechanic to do that, why don't you take it to your real mechanic to just properly diagnose and fix the vehicle, rather than just throwing more and more parts and time at the engine and hoping one of them will fix it?

My friend, the former real mechanic, doesn’t own the proper tool/adapters to do the leak down. I could have spent more buying him the tool locally and have do it, or just take it to my regular guy for the diagnostic, which is what has been done.

The only parts thrown at it so far are plugs and 3 coils... yes, that was done without doing any diagnostic work but I knew that was a gamble going in and given the mileage of the engine, I don’t think it was a bad gamble, it just didn’t work out this time.

I did order injectors in case they were needed because they were much cheaper to order. Didn’t end up needing them, so they can go back.

And I had O’Reilly order a set of valve seals as they aren’t a typically stocked item, but they can be returned to in case they aren’t the problem. Really haven’t don’t that much blind parts throwing.

The symptoms seem to support a leaking valve seal, but it seems the other possible cause is a bad ring. I didn’t want my buddy to go through the wgortnif replacing the seals if a ring is the problem, hence the test.
 
Posts: 5421 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
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Leakdown test results are in:

Cylinders 2 and 3 exhibit leakage to the exhaust system. Total leakage on 2 is at 15%.

Total leakage on 3 is 65%. Other cylinders are as high as 30%.

Frown

This message has been edited. Last edited by: thumperfbc,
 
Posts: 5421 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What engine is this? How many miles on it? Has it ever been overheated?


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Posts: 1934 | Registered: March 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Team Apathy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jelly:
What engine is this? How many miles on it? Has it ever been overheated?


Toyota 3.3, 3mzfe. From a 2004 Sienna AWD. 150k miles, no overheating that we’ve experienced or were made aware of. We bought it last year though so who knows. We weren’t expecting a super long life out of it but I thought it’d make it to 200 at least.
 
Posts: 5421 | Location: Modesto, CA | Registered: January 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by Jelly:
What engine is this? How many miles on it? Has it ever been overheated?


I was just getting ready to ask the same about being overheated. Since he isn’t the original owner, who knows.


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Posts: 1113 | Location: North And East Of The Big Chicken | Registered: November 18, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Thank you
Very little
Picture of HRK
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Call around junk yards see if you can find a used engine from any toyota that uses that same block, swap it out trade the old in for core if they want.

or, drive it, it's just a little off idle stumble, live with it and don't throw any more green at it until it pukes, park it, walk away...



"My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them." Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 13746 | Location: FL | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of egregore
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Leakage out of the exhaust valve? There might still be a small chance, if not of saving it, buying it some more time. The valve cover has to come off to check it, but this engine has a "shim over bucket" valve adjustment, not self-adjusting hydraulic lifters. If the valve clearance has closed up, the exhaust valve will be held off its seat a little bit and you will lose compression. However, not only is shim valve adjustment a PITA, decreased valve clearance can only be caused by the valve receding into the head. So there is not only that problem, but if this has gone on long enough, the valve would be burnt anyway. But seeing if the clearance is too tight could still be useful from a diagnostic standpoint.
 
Posts: 22460 | Location: Johnson City/Elizabethton, TN | Registered: April 28, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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