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Lerner, Paz say they fear physical harm from enraged public, want IRS testimony sealed permanently Login/Join 
Step by step walk the thousand mile road
Picture of Sig2340
posted
I think it should be posted on every website, government and private, around the world.

Use the IRS to target people, have the People target you.

quote:
Lerner, Paz say they fear physical harm from enraged public, want IRS testimony sealed permanently

By Stephen Dinan - The Washington Times - Sunday, November 19, 2017

Former IRS executive Lois G. Lerner told a federal court last week that members of her family, including “young children,” face death threats and a real risk of physical harm if her explanation of the tea party targeting scandal becomes public.

Ms. Lerner and Holly Paz, her deputy at the IRS, filed documents in court Thursday saying tapes and transcripts of depositions they gave in a court case this year must remain sealed in perpetuity, or else they could spur an enraged public to retaliate.

“Whenever Mss. Lerner and Paz have been in the media spotlight, they have faced death threats and harassment,” attorneys for the two women argued.

Ms. Lerner and Ms. Paz gave taped depositions in a class-action lawsuit brought by tea party groups demanding answers and compensation for having been subjected to illegal targeting for their political beliefs.

The government settled the class-action lawsuit in Ohio and another tea party challenge in the District of Columbia in two agreements last month, admitting to the illegal behavior. The Ohio settlement also called for the government to pay $3.5 million to the tea party groups, according to one of the plaintiffs.

Ms. Lerner came in for particular criticism, with the government admitting she not only didn’t stop the targeting — contradicting the Obama administration’s claims — but also hid it from her superiors in Washington.

During the course of the Ohio case, the tea party groups filed thousands of pages of documents, but testimony from Ms. Lerner and Ms. Paz was left out of the public record because of their earlier request for privacy.

Now Ms. Lerner and Ms. Paz say that since the case has been settled, there is no reason for their testimony to ever become public.

“The voluminous record of harassment and physical threats to Mss. Lerner and Paz and their families during the pendency of this litigation provides a compelling reason to seal the materials,” the women’s attorneys said.

They particularly blamed Mark Meckler, a tea party leader whose organization helped fund the class-action lawsuit, saying he helped stoke the threats against them by calling IRS agents “criminal thugs.”

“These words matter. They have created a fertile environment where threats and harassment against Mss. Lerner and Paz have flourished,” the lawyers said.

Mr. Meckler laughed when he learned about the filing.

“Four years of harassing innocent American citizens for their political beliefs, and she’s scared of a guy in a cowboy hat talking to a bunch of little old ladies at a tea party event?” he said, recounting the speech where he called IRS agents “thugs.”

He said if the depositions didn’t show any bad action on her part, then Ms. Lerner should have nothing to fear from their release to the public.

“The reality is because she knows she is guilty as the day is long and she doesn’t want people to know what she actually did,” he said.

“It’s hard to have any sympathy for the women. And frankly, I don’t believe she’s genuinely scared,” Mr. Meckler said.

The Trump administration backs making the documents public, according to court documents, which leaves Ms. Lerner and Ms. Paz fighting a rearguard action.

So far, they have had Judge Michael R. Barrett on their side. As the case was proceeding, he kept the two IRS employees’ testimony secret at their request, allowing only the lawyers involved to see the information.

Papers filed by the tea party groups’ attorneys repeatedly made reference to their testimony in documents, but it was always redacted.

The Cincinnati Enquirer, a newspaper that covers the Cincinnati office of the IRS that initially handled tea party groups’ applications and that Ms. Lerner initially blamed for the targeting, has been fighting to make her version of events public.

The paper renewed that request last month, the day the government and the tea party groups announced their settlement. The paper has argued that there is no “clear and imminent danger” to Ms. Lerner or Ms. Paz.

Ms. Lerner has refused to talk publicly about her handling of the tea party cases, even being held in contempt of Congress when she botched her assertion of Fifth Amendment rights during testimony.

But the Obama Justice Department refused to prosecute the case, saying it concluded Ms. Lerner’s assertion of Fifth Amendment rights was correct.

Under President Obama, the department, in its own investigation into the IRS handling of tea party cases, also credited Ms. Lerner with being one of the bright spots, saying she attempted to curtail the targeting when she learned of it.

But the government now says that is not true. In its settlement last month, the government says Ms. Lerner not only didn’t stop the targeting, but also hid the behavior from superiors.

Ms. Lerner has yet to comment on that settlement.





Nice is overrated

"It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government."
Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018
 
Posts: 31382 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
hello darkness
my old friend
Picture of gw3971
posted Hide Post
Yep. Remember when they posted the addresses of concealed permit holders. Seems fair to me...
 
Posts: 7721 | Location: West Jordan, Utah | Registered: June 19, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
No hard feelings. It can all be cleared up quickly.

 
Posts: 3718 | Registered: August 13, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Joy Maker
Picture of airsoft guy
posted Hide Post
If government officials don't want the people to know what they were up to, because the people might show up at their house with pitchforks and torches, then the people probably ought to know what kind of shenanigans those officials were getting up to. Then they become a cautionary tale for future government officials, screw around with the people, and you might find yourself in a tall tree with a short rope.



quote:
Originally posted by Will938:
If you don't become a screen writer for comedy movies, then you're an asshole.
 
Posts: 16995 | Location: Washington State | Registered: April 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oh stewardess,
I speak jive.
Picture of 46and2
posted Hide Post
Release all details, and offer the crook WitSec if there is a clear and imminent threat (which I don't believe for a second, nor do I believe it's anything but fear of the truth coming out and showing how badly they actually behaved).

Win-Win
 
Posts: 25613 | Registered: March 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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It’s not just the actions that she took while at the I.R.S. It’s also the fact that there has not been any justice equal to her transgressions.
If the American people (Who are, by the way, writing her paycheck.) thought her punishment to be just, then the likelihood of threats from the public would be minimized.
 
Posts: 748 | Location: Western Washington AC | Registered: August 19, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Political Cynic
Picture of nhtagmember
posted Hide Post
does SigForum have any legal standing to file a class action lawsuit for the release of ALL of the info under a FOIA and we can publish it all

just curious - we have a shitload of members who might like to be part of something nice



[B] Against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC


 
Posts: 53086 | Location: Tucson Arizona | Registered: January 16, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Administrator
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by nhtagmember:
does SigForum have any legal standing to file a class action lawsuit for the release of ALL of the info under a FOIA and we can publish it all

just curious - we have a shitload of members who might like to be part of something nice


What would be our actual, imminent, concrete and particularized harm? Is there injury-in-fact? In other words, how are we hurt by not knowing what's in those records?

Is there a direct causal connection between the alleged injury and the alleged conduct (withholding of information)?

Can the injury be redressed by a favorable decision from the court?

We might not have standing, but someone who else might. Let's say, someone who she slandered and can't get a job now, but that person needs the records unsealed to prove that Lerner, el al. were lying about him.
 
Posts: 17733 | Registered: August 12, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Now in Florida
Picture of ChicagoSigMan
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by nhtagmember:
does SigForum have any legal standing to file a class action lawsuit for the release of ALL of the info under a FOIA and we can publish it all

just curious - we have a shitload of members who might like to be part of something nice


The matter is already before the judge. There is no need for a new suit.
 
Posts: 6061 | Location: FL | Registered: March 09, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Unflappable Enginerd
Picture of stoic-one
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We're still paying this wench because she was "allowed" to retire with no repercussions, and now she's acting like a cat trying to cover up some shit in a litter box? Yeah, whatever! Mad


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I lost all my weapons in a boating, umm, accident.
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Posts: 6192 | Location: Headland, AL | Registered: April 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I have not yet begun
to procrastinate
posted Hide Post
They particularly blamed Mark Meckler, a tea party leader whose organization helped fund the class-action lawsuit, saying he helped stoke the threats against them by calling IRS agents “criminal thugs.”

So Meckler calls 'em like he sees 'em and HE'S the problem?
Look in the mirror bitches!


--------
After the game, the King and the pawn go into the same box.
 
Posts: 3771 | Location: Central AZ | Registered: October 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Step by step walk the thousand mile road
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by LDD:
quote:
Originally posted by nhtagmember:
does SigForum have any legal standing to file a class action lawsuit for the release of ALL of the info under a FOIA and we can publish it all

just curious - we have a shitload of members who might like to be part of something nice


What would be our imminent, concrete and particularized harm?

In other words, how are we hurt by not knowing what's in those records?


Absent full disclosure, the People cannot understand the extent to which the Obama Administration subverted the mechanisms of legitimate governance, therefore, cannot enact additional concrete checks and balances leaving the People vulnerable to a repeat of such abuse and usurpation.





Nice is overrated

"It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government."
Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018
 
Posts: 31382 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
No double standards
posted Hide Post
I willfully and intentionally violated the rights of my political foes, and got caught. Now I want to hide the details of my criminal activity because my foes might get angry at what I did and want justice, (rights for me, but not for thee). Roll Eyes




"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it"
- Judge Learned Hand, May 1944
 
Posts: 30668 | Location: UT | Registered: November 11, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
No double standards
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340:
quote:
Originally posted by LDD:
quote:
Originally posted by nhtagmember:
does SigForum have any legal standing to file a class action lawsuit for the release of ALL of the info under a FOIA and we can publish it all

just curious - we have a shitload of members who might like to be part of something nice


What would be our imminent, concrete and particularized harm?

In other words, how are we hurt by not knowing what's in those records?


Absent full disclosure, the People cannot understand the extent to which the Obama Administration subverted the mechanisms of legitimate governance, therefore, cannot enact additional concrete checks and balances leaving the People vulnerable to a repeat of such abuse and usurpation.


Question asked, question answered.




"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it....While it lies there, it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it"
- Judge Learned Hand, May 1944
 
Posts: 30668 | Location: UT | Registered: November 11, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Official Space Nerd
Picture of Hound Dog
posted Hide Post
This is typical leftist behaviour - trying to turn the perpetrators into 'victims.'

Just like all the bs stories after terror attacks about muslim women with small children facing threats from eevil white Trump voters. Roll Eyes This version even has a tearful concern about innocent *children* getting death threats.

Her 'concerns' are, IMO, a clear admission of guilt. Why ELSE would she want the truth buried. . .?



Fear God and Dread Nought
Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher
 
Posts: 21821 | Location: Hobbiton, The Shire, Middle Earth | Registered: September 27, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Administrator
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340:
Absent full disclosure, the People cannot understand the extent to which the Obama Administration subverted the mechanisms of legitimate governance, therefore, cannot enact additional concrete checks and balances leaving the People vulnerable to a repeat of such abuse and usurpation.


I think I understand what you are saying, but the standard from Lujan v. Defenders of Wildlife is "substantial risk" (which you might be able to plead in this case, or the higher standard of "certainly impending" (Clapper v. Amnesty International, USA) which would be much harder to support without support from the sealed records themselves. Trying to measure up the "certainly impending" standard would probably put you in the Iqbal chicken-egg dilemma where the information you need to get yourself into court requires access to the very documents that you're trying to obtain via the suit itself.

[devil's advocate]if the people who supposedly did this damage have retired and been replaced and they are the source of the alleged impropriety, isn't the issue moot?[/devil's advocate]
 
Posts: 17733 | Registered: August 12, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Gracie Allen is my
personal savior!
posted Hide Post
That doesn't mean that the court won't allow the information to be shown to the attorneys. It just means that the attorneys will not be allowed to share that information.

At the same time, we don't punish people for abusing their place in office based on how recent the offense was. We punish the offense so that there is some measure of equity for those who have been wronged and so that there is a severe disincentive for anyone to do the same thing in the future.

ETA: Put it this way - you just know Hill's counting on the fact that she's seen as being forcibly retired from national politics to ensure that people argue it isn't worthwhile to investigate or prosecute anything she's done.
 
Posts: 27291 | Location: Deep in the heart of the brush country, and closing on that #&*%!?! roadrunner. Really. | Registered: February 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Step by step walk the thousand mile road
Picture of Sig2340
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by LDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340:
Absent full disclosure, the People cannot understand the extent to which the Obama Administration subverted the mechanisms of legitimate governance, therefore, cannot enact additional concrete checks and balances leaving the People vulnerable to a repeat of such abuse and usurpation.


I think I understand what you are saying, but the standard from Lujan v. Defenders of Wildlife is "substantial risk" (which you might be able to plead in this case, or the higher standard of "certainly impending" (Clapper v. Amnesty International, USA) which would be much harder to support without support from the sealed records themselves. Trying to measure up the "certainly impending" standard would probably put you in the Iqbal chicken-egg dilemma where the information you need to get yourself into court requires access to the very documents that you're trying to obtain via the suit itself.

[devil's advocate]if the people who supposedly did this damage have retired and been replaced and they are the source of the alleged impropriety, isn't the issue moot?[/devil's advocate]


Absent the culprits being held criminally accountable, there is no effective deterrence of others repeating the acts.





Nice is overrated

"It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government."
Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018
 
Posts: 31382 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Age Quod Agis
Picture of ArtieS
posted Hide Post
Don't want the horns? Don't fuck with the bull.

I don't care whether accountability comes from fear of legal consequence, or fear of death. I only want accountability.



"I vowed to myself to fight against evil more completely and more wholeheartedly than I ever did before. . . . That’s the only way to pay back part of that vast debt, to live up to and try to fulfill that tremendous obligation."

Alfred Hornik, Sunday, December 2, 1945 to his family, on his continuing duty to others for surviving WW II.
 
Posts: 12748 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: November 02, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
Picture of P220 Smudge
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by airsoft guy:
If government officials don't want the people to know what they were up to, because the people might show up at their house with pitchforks and torches, then the people probably ought to know what kind of shenanigans those officials were getting up to. Then they become a cautionary tale for future government officials, screw around with the people, and you might find yourself in a tall tree with a short rope.


Absolutely. She's been scared since that press conference years back when she dropped the bomb on herself, and the more and harder she tries to hide what it is that she's scared of, the more I want to know what it is. I, and many others, greatly want to know what has Lois Lerner so scared.


______________________________________________
Carthago delenda est
 
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