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Picture of cparktd
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quote:
Originally posted by feersum dreadnaught:
quote:
Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
Dig the caption on that first picture.

"It should be clear from the photograph that firing a broadside does not push the ship sideways."

! I can the ship rocking a bit, but pushed sideways?


No rocking either. Just a bit of a shake. And always remember to roll down the windows on the bridge - that way the don’t get blown in.


Well that's interesting, and a little disappointing. My Machine shop instructor, a retired Colonel from circa WWII, claimed the ship would indeed roll with a full side salvo. I distinctly remember him relating how impressive it was to witness.

I will give way to the experts, but with the guns placement, probably above the roll center of the ship, I don't see how it could not roll the ship.



If it ain't woke... don't fix it.
 
Posts: 4118 | Location: Middle Tennessee | Registered: February 07, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Baroque Bloke
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^^^^^^

Gyros?



Serious about crackers
 
Posts: 8856 | Location: San Diego | Registered: July 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Official Space Nerd
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Maybe he was on another class of battleship? The Iowa class was our final class that we actually built. We had 25 battleships active in WWII. Only 10 were 'modern;' in that they were built right before or during WWII (2 NC, 4 SD, 4 IA classes).

The older ones had narrower beams and were much smaller/lighter. The Arizona, for example, was only 608' long with a 97' beam and displaced 32,000 tons at full load (compared to 887' long, 108' wide, and 57,000 tons full load for an Iowa). . . We had a hiatus in building battleships from 1924 to 1937 or so. Ship design came a LONG way in the intervening years.



Speaking of barrel wear, the Germans built a ridiculously large rail gun, with something like a 24" bore. The shells were numbered, and fired sequentially. Each shell was slightly larger in diameter than the previous, due to barrel wear. Needless to say, it was a white elephant as a weapon and a huge waste of manpower and resources.



Fear God and Dread Nought
Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher
 
Posts: 21821 | Location: Hobbiton, The Shire, Middle Earth | Registered: September 27, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Muzzle flash
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The momentum of a 1-ton projectile driven at 2700 ft/sec being imparted to a 57,000-ton vessel would be 2700/57000 ft/sec, or about 1/20 ft/sec--call it 5/8"/sec--barely noticeable. And that would only occur if there were no resistance of the water to account for. Regarding a broadside, remember that the big rifles don't actually fire simultaneously--there are slight delays imposed to reduce stress on the ship.

IIRC, the largest caliber rifle ever made was "Dora" (German WWII), which had a 31.5" bore. https://www.bing.com/videos/se...2063BBA&&FORM=VDRVRV

There was also a "Little David", which was a 36" mortar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc-wE6RdRVI

flashguy




Texan by choice, not accident of birth
 
Posts: 27902 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Festina Lente
Picture of feersum dreadnaught
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Not a battleship ballistics "expert" - just spent 3 years on BB-61, through many a broadside.

and nope, no rolling. "Shake" was enough to break various things attached to overheads and bulkheads, loosen the odd fittings, and definitively felt throughout the ship. Muzzle blast over-pressure was enough to routinely warp the water-tight doors closest to Turret 2.

Flashguy has it explained. even though a 16" has a lot of recoil, it is a big ship - with a draft ~37 feet, which offers a lot of surface area beyond the inertia of weight.



NRA Life Member - "Fear God and Dreadnaught"
 
Posts: 8295 | Location: in the red zone of the blue state, CT | Registered: October 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Thank you
Very little
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Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvZS63Osons

Published on Sep 11, 2016
U.S. BATTLESHIP FIRING! Guns in ACTION for the FINAL TIME!

In early 1991, the United States Navy Iowa-class battleship, USS Wisconsin (BB-64), fired her mighty 16 inch guns for the last time.

This was a most auspicious (ceremonial, NOT combat) occasion because this massive ship had served commendably in three wars – World War II, Korean War and Gulf War – since her commissioning on April 16, 1944. (She now serves as a 'museum ship' where she is berthed adjacent to Nauticus, the National Maritime Center in Norfolk, Virginia.)

The Iowa-class battleships were a class of 'fast battleships' ordered by the USN in 1939 & 1940 to escort the Fast Carrier Task Forces that would operate in the Pacific Theater of World War II. Four were completed.

The music featured at the start of the video – called “Apocalyptic War” – was composed by La Cigale.

..and, as always, we thank you for visiting the Ultimate Military Channel. We aim to visually educate and entertain by providing our viewers with timely, highest quality, globally sourced military media.



 
Posts: 23244 | Location: Florida | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rinehart -

Small world, I thought the name Chernesky sounded familiar. He was my XO while I was on the USS DALE, CG-19 from 1977-1980. He would inspect the crews quarters (ALL of them) daily at 1100 hours. As part of the inspection he would get down on his knees, with white gloves on, and wipe the deck under the bottom bunks. If his hand came up clean that was a good thing. While quarters were typically tight, it was always clean and it certainly helped morale among the crew.

Never had to see him in any disciplinary role, so I always liked him. Searched him on the web to see if he was the same Chernesky. It was. Also saw he made Captain of a BB. Nice to see that too.

GMT2 Erickson



My first department boss in the Navy in subs (XO on Bonefish), was the late John Joseph Chernesky.

He later was the recommissioning Executive Office of the USS Iowa. He was quite a character and a brilliant man.

Reading on how they brought those post-treaty battleships back into service is pretty interesting.

Below is a link where they discuss all of the proposals they had for the project and what happened-

Battleships after WWII[/QUOTE]
 
Posts: 2130 | Location: south central Pennsylvania | Registered: November 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
The New Jersey was my first choice on my dream sheet out of OCS. It was just coming back on line, reputedly with a half crew.

The company officer at OCS warned me that if I got that duty, I would probably be the 3rd Assistant Forward Coke Machine Officer, and secondly, after going to the expense and trouble of refitting it, there would be very little time tied to the pier.

I didn’t get those orders, of course, but when I arrived at North Island, there was the New Jersey at the dock. I got to know one of the JOs and got a very comprehensive tour.

Too bad!



I spent several nights sleeping on the New Jersey with the Boys Scouts. They gave a nice tour after dinner. I don't know if they still offer that service. The tour guides had served on the BB62 and gave some interesting facts during the tour.


Living the Dream
 
Posts: 4011 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: December 06, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Muzzle flash
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I would pay good money to be nearby when those big 16' rifles are fired! (I have a standing offer of $1000 to anyone who can get me in to watch live tank or artillery practice close up.)

flashguy




Texan by choice, not accident of birth
 
Posts: 27902 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Stangosaurus Rex
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Once we were at GQ for damage control drills, so us Phalanx guys had nothing to do so we were sleeping in the forward control room over the bridge. All of a sudden the door flew open and the Weapons Officer entered and excitedly said"guys, guys wake up, the XO is coming!" He caught us sleeping but did not want the XO to know. 15 seconds later, JJ Cherneski strode in. JJ directly assessed me and said "you guys were sleeping weren't you?" The Weapons Officer piped up "No they weren't sir". JJ looked directly at me and said "Come on Petty Officer, you can tell me, I'm Darth Vader". Since the Weapons Officer told him that we weren't, I had to misconfigure the truth to JJ that day. I think he knew but I think he respected that I threw it on the line and backed the Weapons Officer. I wanted to puke then! JJ had some balls on him!


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Beth Greene
 
Posts: 7840 | Location: South Florida | Registered: January 09, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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GMT2 Erickson, looks like you had an interesting time. Glad that you also met J.J. Chernesky.

We called him JJ, or sometimes "The Eagle". Probably one of the smartest people I have ever met. The man was particularly brilliant in performing submarine attack approaches, and I did many simulated and actual as a member of his fire control tracking party in several roles.

What he did very best for Bonefish was mentor people, and it didn't matter how low on the scale you happened to be. He helped move at least four smart enlisted guys into what I remember as NECP (Naval Enlisted Commissioning Program), dunno if it still exists. Another person during his time onboard was recommended for Seal training and made it.
(I mention this because after JJ left this mentoring diminished somewhat).

Bonefish was unusual in that probably half of the wardroom were mustangs, and at the time they looked for qualified people to mentor. JJ kept all of us on our toes and pushed everyone to learn more than just their core roles, if you get the idea...
His philosophy was "work hard, play hard"...

I went through a shipyard on Bonefish with him and he had an adjoining office to mine with a little open window in the middle wall. We were on a WWII barge for the duration of the sub shipyard in Pearl Harbor and JJ thought it was great fun to occasionally toss a lit firecracker through the little open window...

Very interesting gentleman and I was sorry to discover after the fact that he had passed due to cancer. He was the kind of man that you may not always agree with, but you always respected. We need more people like that in the world-

He is buried at Arlington National Cemetery.

 
Posts: 1507 | Location: PA | Registered: March 15, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by cparktd:
quote:
Originally posted by feersum dreadnaught:
quote:
Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
Dig the caption on that first picture.

"It should be clear from the photograph that firing a broadside does not push the ship sideways."

! I can the ship rocking a bit, but pushed sideways?


No rocking either. Just a bit of a shake. And always remember to roll down the windows on the bridge - that way the don’t get blown in.


Well that's interesting, and a little disappointing. My Machine shop instructor, a retired Colonel from circa WWII, claimed the ship would indeed roll with a full side salvo. I distinctly remember him relating how impressive it was to witness.

I will give way to the experts, but with the guns placement, probably above the roll center of the ship, I don't see how it could not roll the ship.


It would seem logical that the ship does not roll with the firing of the guns, otherwise it would affect the aim of the other guns as they fire in sequence.
 
Posts: 1994 | Location: DFW Texas | Registered: March 13, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Muzzle flash
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It is probably more true that the ship does not roll perceptibly when the guns fire--obviously that much force applied above the center of mass must have some effect. I calculated what that would be in an earlier post, and it is so small no one would notice it.

flashguy




Texan by choice, not accident of birth
 
Posts: 27902 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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about too much
Picture of rduckwor
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quote:
The liner was basically glued on and wouldn't come out when firing.



That's what I wanted to know. How they managed to keep the liner in place and keep propellant gasses from blowing it out of the barrel.

Thanks,

RMD




TL Davis: “The Second Amendment is special, not because it protects guns, but because its violation signals a government with the intention to oppress its people…”
Remember: After the first one, the rest are free.
 
Posts: 20303 | Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Baroque Bloke
Picture of Pipe Smoker
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quote:
Originally posted by rduckwor:
quote:
The liner was basically glued on and wouldn't come out when firing.



That's what I wanted to know. How they managed to keep the liner in place and keep propellant gasses from blowing it out of the barrel.

Thanks,

RMD

I would've guessed that they cooled the liner, causing it to contract, and heated the barrel, causing it to expand. Then quickly inserted the liner. After liner and barrel temperatures equalized, the liner would be tightly bound in place.



Serious about crackers
 
Posts: 8856 | Location: San Diego | Registered: July 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Festina Lente
Picture of feersum dreadnaught
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by straightshooter01:
quote:
Originally posted by cparktd:
quote:
Originally posted by feersum dreadnaught:
quote:
Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
Dig the caption on that first picture.

"It should be clear from the photograph that firing a broadside does not push the ship sideways."

! I can the ship rocking a bit, but pushed sideways?


No rocking either. Just a bit of a shake. And always remember to roll down the windows on the bridge - that way the don’t get blown in.


Well that's interesting, and a little disappointing. My Machine shop instructor, a retired Colonel from circa WWII, claimed the ship would indeed roll with a full side salvo. I distinctly remember him relating how impressive it was to witness.

I will give way to the experts, but with the guns placement, probably above the roll center of the ship, I don't see how it could not roll the ship.


It would seem logical that the ship does not roll with the firing of the guns, otherwise it would affect the aim of the other guns as they fire in sequence.


ships roll and pitch more due to wave action than broadsides. There is a device called a "stable vertical" with a gyroscope in it that feeds the deck angles into the analog computer or "rangekeeper" (along with course, speed, relative wind speed and direction, target speed, range and direction) to calculate gun bearing and elevation to hit a given target.

when you fire in "auto", the rangekeeper would only fire when the deck was horizontal, or if the servos could keep the gun at the correct elevation. Each gun has individual elevation control, and could move ~12 degrees per second. If the ships motion was excessive, it would fire as the gun came into the correct elevation (e.g., as the deck became horizontal)



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Posts: 8295 | Location: in the red zone of the blue state, CT | Registered: October 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That rug really tied
the room together.
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I read somewhere that the United States no longer has the capacity and ability to build a WW2 style battleship. Very sad if true.


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Posts: 6660 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Unmanned Writer
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During Desert Storm our aircrew had the opportunity to fly parallel to a round fired the battleship. They said it was like flying next to an arcing VW Beetle.







Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.



Only in an insane world are the sane considered insane.


The memories of a man in his old age
Are the deeds of a man in his prime


 
Posts: 14020 | Location: It was Lat: 33.xxxx Lon: 44.xxxx now it's CA :( | Registered: March 22, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Stangosaurus Rex
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The gyro is called a stable element and it is located centerline low in the ship. It sends analog signals to the fire control computers (MK1A for main battery). These analog signals represent direction and distance the the horizontal plane is off zero. The fire control computer uses the analog signal along with the ballistic inputs concerning powder and the projectile as well as the target info from the sensor in use, usually the fire control radars for the 16 inch, Spot 1 or Spot 2. The computer computes the fire control solution and generates train and elevation orders for the gun turret and gun. Pitch and roll are compensated for real time in the orders based on all the inputs. You can see the guns moving with the pitch and roll when slaved to the computer solution. I worked on Phalanx on the Iowa, we had inputs from the stable element wired to our systems via a switch. Our systems had their own gyros, so we did not use the ships gyro data.


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Beth Greene
 
Posts: 7840 | Location: South Florida | Registered: January 09, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Definitely an interesting and informative thread!!! Big Grin Cool


Jim
 
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