I used to tell some of my liberal family members, all who were not experienced with firearms, that I would rather face an averaged sized person with a 9mm pistol in my bedroom than a larger, muscular man with a baseball bat. They simply could not wrap their minds around my explanation that I would have a better chance at survival with the gun man. They think a single gunshot anywhere is fatal, hence why do cops need to empty their mags into a perp.

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Originally posted by duke762:
...feel like you have any chance at all in a gun fight? The perps in a lot of the shootings seem to be bullet sponges, it's seems like an eternity before the go down. This is with trained pro's shooting multiple rounds using the best ammo they can get.

Officer Jim Cirillo, NYPD stake out squad, killed 11 men and was involved in more than 20 police shootouts. He stated later that he learned early on that "center of mass" shots would get him killed. He completely changed his training regimen and trained for head shots after his first few gun battles saw bad guys soak up a lot of ammunition and still continue firing their guns.

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Originally posted by Edmond:

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Originally posted by jljones:

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Originally posted by CPD SIG:

Actual experience is a bitch, isn't it? Perhaps we should start lying to the new guys and telling them that pistols are AWESOME. (But what will we do five minute later when they get to their first shooting and find out its not actually true???)

The basic facts are that if you don't take a CNS hit, and you make it to a trauma center fairly quickly, you're probably going to live from being shot with a pistol. The idea that you're teaching people that they are "doomed" is really silly, because you're teaching them that if they are shot, there is no reason to quit because they are probably going to make it. And it doesn't take them all that long to figure it out on the street, so why lie to them about it.

Do you guys believe there is a mentality that some rookies/newer cops believe the sight of a badge/gun are enough to intimidate a criminal?

How about the factor of improved medical technology? Not just at the hospital but also what paramedics and the cops on scene have learned in first aid.

I've never seen anyone shot with a handgun but I've seen guys get hit with rifle rounds and grenade shrapnel. None of them died. Saw one guy get hit in the femur with the rifle. Dropped him but fortunately missed the artery. He was a Czech so we liked them. Saw an Afghan Army guy get hit in the rear plate with a 7.62 and the plate stopped the round. His back was swollen and he was hut but he survived. No, we did not have any Tylenol or Motrin to help him with the pain.

(No Motrin? Wtf?!? You guys had horrible medics! Our Corpsman give that shit out like it's candy!)

Not just new cops, but people in general, ESPECIALLY those that CCW have to look at animal behavior. How predatory animals work, how pack animals work. It gives a good insight into criminals.
For some criminals, the sight of a cop or someone with a gun is enough. They don't want to get hassled, get into a fight or go to jail that day.
Then there's the harden criminal/ mentally disturbed... They just don't care. Jail, cop, army, Mother Theresa, guns... They just don't care.

Modern medicine has helped greatly in the survival of traumatic wounds! And on a personal note, I'm truly grateful that it has! We've come leaps and bounds in the last 15-20 years in that field.
There has been some serious miracles that have happened overseas and here in the states with our guys that have been shot/ suffered penetration wounds.
Which is good. If you're involved in a shooting, specifically on the receiving end, you need to get it into your head that YOU CAN SURVIVE! - short term achievable goals - you can survive until EMS gets to the scene. You can survive because you just administered some self aid. You can survive until you get to the ER. You can survive until you get into the operating room. I don't care how you do it, but get it into your head that YOU CAN SURVIVE! DONT get this "who's going to look after my kids, who's going to pay my bills" "Oh, woe is me" mindset, that shit will kill you. And just because you got hit, doesn't mean that the fight is over! You may still have to take care of some business. You better stop that threat... or THREATS (may be more than one)!

On the flip side of the coin, and here's where some misconceptions lie:
If some quality hits are achieved, and the bad guy has got a round or two in the heart, ascending aorta, femoral, jugular... And that isn't treated QUICK, well... They gonna die. BUT NOT RIGHT AWAY! So between the time they get shot, and the time they expire, they are still a possible threat! It is totally possible that they can still return fire, that they are still in the fight! It's not like the movies when the cowboy with the black hat gets shot, "Oh, he shot me!" then drops. A LOT of stuff can happen in that time between being shot and actually expires! And that time can feel like an eternity!
Factors can and will change when things like drugs/alcohol/mental illness are involved. PCP / Bath salts... The person might not know they've been shot. Crazy? You shoot Crazy, Crazy might get more pissed off! Crazy does some crazy shit!

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Originally posted by gearhounds:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jljones:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CPD SIG:

Actual experience is a bitch, isn't it? Perhaps we should start lying to the new guys and telling them that pistols are AWESOME. (But what will we do five minute later when they get to their first shooting and find out its not actually true???)



When I started out, this is exactly how training was conducted. You got shot, instructors call “out of role” and you were pronounced dead. Thank goodness most every academy now teaches to fight, fight, fight no matter what. Beyond graduation, it is up to individuals to keep the right mindset, stay in shape, and practice.

jljones, I'm not going to say that they are awesome, but sometimes you got to work with what you got! If your only option is a framing hammer, you best know it's limitations!
I'm not gonna lie, I WANT THE SLEDGEHAMMER!

gear hounds, I am SOOOO greatfull that trainers and instructors have realized and stepped away from those huge training scars! I remember coming from the military and transitioning to police, and going "WTF, over?!?!" to some of my instructors. I was in more than one argument about "just because you're hit doesn't mean you're dead!"

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Originally posted by CPD SIG:

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Originally posted by gearhounds:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jljones:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CPD SIG:

Actual experience is a bitch, isn't it? Perhaps we should start lying to the new guys and telling them that pistols are AWESOME. (But what will we do five minute later when they get to their first shooting and find out its not actually true???)



When I started out, this is exactly how training was conducted. You got shot, instructors call “out of role” and you were pronounced dead. Thank goodness most every academy now teaches to fight, fight, fight no matter what. Beyond graduation, it is up to individuals to keep the right mindset, stay in shape, and practice.

jljones, I'm not going to say that they are awesome, but sometimes you got to work with what you got! If your only option is a framing hammer, you best know it's limitations!
I'm not gonna lie, I WANT THE SLEDGEHAMMER!

gear hounds, I am SOOOO greatfull that trainers and instructors have realized and stepped away from those huge training scars! I remember coming from the military and transitioning to police, and going "WTF, over?!?!" to some of my instructors. I was in more than one argument about "just because you're hit doesn't mean you're dead!"

I know you wouldn't say that. You have probably been to way more shootings than I have. And that was the point I was making.

Ohbytheway, you ever hear if the area detectives grabbed the guy I mentioned to you? About six weeks after I sent you that info, he went from $15k a month to disappeared. I figure he got pinched.

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Originally posted by CPD SIG:

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Originally posted by Edmond:
Saw an Afghan Army guy get hit in the rear plate with a 7.62 and the plate stopped the round. His back was swollen and he was hut but he survived. No, we did not have any Tylenol or Motrin to help him with the pain.

(No Motrin? Wtf?!? You guys had horrible medics! Our Corpsman give that shit out like it's candy!)

We did have it, just not for him.