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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Excam_Man:
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:

A great installer can’t make up for lower quality. Trane has the lowest failure rate in the industry. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or misinformed.


Bullshit. Trane is not superior to a great installer/service tech.
Show me a system with multiple failures and you'll have yourself a jacked up install.


I never said Trane was superior to an installer. You’re missing the point. A lower quality product to begin with can’t be made more reliable with a quality install. Just because a system has multiple failures doesn’t mean it was a bad install. Most internal parts failures has absolutely nothing to do with the installer, such as lines rubbing holes in each other where the installer never even touched them.


————————————————
Those who can, do. Those who can’t, manage.
 
Posts: 980 | Location: North And East Of The Big Chicken | Registered: November 18, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bigdeal:
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:
Trane has the lowest failure rate in the industry. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or misinformed.
Instead of conjecture, can you provide us with some industry or market related data to back up those claims? When I tried to research the topic of reliability by brand before buying a new system last year, Tranes reliability didn't appear to be any better than a number of the other big brands, and in some cases, not as good. If you've run across info I haven't, please share.


Consumer reports. Trane has a failure rate of 17% in the first five years. Goodman 22%.


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Those who can, do. Those who can’t, manage.
 
Posts: 980 | Location: North And East Of The Big Chicken | Registered: November 18, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ammoholic
Picture of Skins2881
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quote:
Originally posted by Excam_Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Skins2881:
I had a Goodman. Found it easy to work on and easy to get parts for. I did replace a lot of parts over 12 years:

-Inducer vac switch
-Hot surface ignitor
-Flame sensor
-Board
-Blower motor
-Inducer

All of the above was ~$500 in parts free labor cause I know how to diagnose and fix stuff. All above parts were available for pickup at R.E. Michels and/or Amazon prime. Probably $2,500 in retail repairs, maybe more over 12 years. Seems excessive to me, over ~$200 a year or more in maintenance.

Out of curiosity, Excam or any HVAC techs, what would the above repairs cost on a furnace if each repair was a separate trip?


Hard to know without a model number.

BTW, flame sensors don't need to be replaced unless the porcelain is broke.


Flame sensor couldn't be cleaned any more, it looked outwardly fine no visible cracks.

I was asking general ball park numbers for low end furnace. I think my guess at retail costs are pretty low considering I've heard of people paying $400+ just to replace a capacitor. If I was paying full retail price for repairs. Then I would have probably strapped some tannerite to the machine.



Jesse

A couple SIGs and a few others
 
Posts: 14260 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: December 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by smlsig:

- I’m surprised you were even quoted a 13 SEER system as these don’t even meet current building code minimums..


Negative, he lives in Michigan, which is part of the North's 13 SEER requirement.
https://www.achrnews.com/artic...onsiders-enforcement

For the area, it's really all that's needed (short AC season). The 13 SEER units are achieving 14 SEER with a variable speed blower.




 
Posts: 7852 | Registered: October 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:
quote:
Originally posted by Excam_Man:
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:

A great installer can’t make up for lower quality. Trane has the lowest failure rate in the industry. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or misinformed.


Bullshit. Trane is not superior to a great installer/service tech.
Show me a system with multiple failures and you'll have yourself a jacked up install.


I never said Trane was superior to an installer. You’re missing the point. A lower quality product to begin with can’t be made more reliable with a quality install. Just because a system has multiple failures doesn’t mean it was a bad install. Most internal parts failures has absolutely nothing to do with the installer, such as lines rubbing holes in each other where the installer never even touched them.


You can tote Trane all you want, I'm not drinking the koolaid.
The majority of failures are directly linked to install/setup issues.
Yes, there are legitimate manufacturing defects, but those are minimal compared to the amount of overall failures.

The failure rates listed above are completely useless. Unless you have controlled conditions, same tech, etc.
Just look at tech callbacks and parts getting warrantied, when they are not the issue.




 
Posts: 7852 | Registered: October 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Consumer Reports are actual results from owner surveys. No kool aid involved.

Anyone who thinks Goodman is as good as or better than Trane/Ingersoll Rand is being disingenuous or Goodman is their house brand.


————————————————
Those who can, do. Those who can’t, manage.
 
Posts: 980 | Location: North And East Of The Big Chicken | Registered: November 18, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Excam_Man:
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:
quote:
Originally posted by Excam_Man:
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:

A great installer can’t make up for lower quality. Trane has the lowest failure rate in the industry. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or misinformed.


Bullshit. Trane is not superior to a great installer/service tech.
Show me a system with multiple failures and you'll have yourself a jacked up install.


I never said Trane was superior to an installer. You’re missing the point. A lower quality product to begin with can’t be made more reliable with a quality install. Just because a system has multiple failures doesn’t mean it was a bad install. Most internal parts failures has absolutely nothing to do with the installer, such as lines rubbing holes in each other where the installer never even touched them.


The majority of failures are directly linked to install/setup issues.


I’m interested in seeing data you have to back that up.


————————————————
Those who can, do. Those who can’t, manage.
 
Posts: 980 | Location: North And East Of The Big Chicken | Registered: November 18, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:
Consumer Reports are actual results from owner surveys. No kool aid involved.

Anyone who thinks Goodman is as good as or better than Trane/Ingersoll Rand is being disingenuous or Goodman is their house brand.


Too funny, consumer reports.
Where every install is dependant on many different variables:
Equipment sizing
Ducting size
Combustion air
Flue piping
Proper evacuations
Proper charging
Proper piping size
Utility connections
Set-up
Poor filter systems
Run times
Lack of maintenance
Homeowner expectations (from people who know no different)
....the list is endless.

And the big one, installers with different levels of competency.

Guess what... I don't sell Goodman. Never have.
Nor do you see me endorsing any manufacture when it comes to HVAC equipment.

quote:
I’m interested in seeing data you have to back that up.


Any tech worth a shit understands how and what causes equipment failures.
Give you a simple one... What causes a high limit to fail on a furnace?




 
Posts: 7852 | Registered: October 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Give me the data and I’ll answer your question.


————————————————
Those who can, do. Those who can’t, manage.
 
Posts: 980 | Location: North And East Of The Big Chicken | Registered: November 18, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of lee40215
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Almost all the parts for every manufacturer are made by the same companies. You can’t relate equipment failures unless as stated before you know that it was installed properly and the homeowner kept up all the required maintenance. I have sold most the major brands and the only ones I shy away from are rheem and Rudd.
 
Posts: 1045 | Location: Louisville, Kentucky | Registered: August 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of bigdeal
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quote:
Originally posted by lee40215:
Almost all the parts for every manufacturer are made by the same companies.
This was the thing that amazed me the most when I began researching new systems last year prior to replacing ours. The compressor, the most expensive single item of the system, in virtually every cabinet of every manufacturer is either made by Copeland or (I forget the other and am too lazy to go look it up). The primary thing I came away with as a primary difference between manufacturers was the quality of assembly and the quality of the outer cabinet (of course that includes the complexity of the system). And I think there's a whole lot of debate about those topics as well.

I still laugh every time I think about the uber expensive, high SEER Bryant Evolution system I bought like 10 years ago. When it arrived onsite on its pallet at my home, the installer had to reference the invoice to determine which badge to put on the cabinet (three badges were included with it). Apparently the same air handler was used for both Carrier (more expensive) and Bryant system installs. So the only difference between Carrier and Bryant at that point in time was the badge the installer stuck on the cabinet and how much cash was liberated from your pocket for one name over another.

And for those recommending American Standard as an option, realize they are not available everywhere. Here in Central Florida, I couldn't find anyone who sells and installs American Standard. Trane yes, American Standard, no. Carrier also offers a lower cost option in their Day & Night line, which is also not available in Florida as best I could determine.


-----------------------------
Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter
 
Posts: 28443 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: April 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:
Give me the data and I’ll answer your question.


It's ok, I already know why they fail.

And when someone wants to play with the big dogs, but doesn't have the knowledge to do so, they always want to play games.

I, myself, don't play games, facts are facts and speak for themselves.
Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.




 
Posts: 7852 | Registered: October 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go Vols!
Picture of Oz_Shadow
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I went with the Lennox. The installer is the biggest in the area with plenty of good reviews and did the most thorough estimate process.

In this area there are far more Lennox dealers and a distribution center local.

Carrier and Bryant dealers were fewer and Trane even less.

Thank you everyone for the input, particularly the pros that weigh in.

I’ll share pics once installed if anyone cares.
 
Posts: 15480 | Location: SE Michigan | Registered: February 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of smlsig
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Excam_Man:
quote:
Originally posted by smlsig:

- I’m surprised you were even quoted a 13 SEER system as these don’t even meet current building code minimums..


Negative, he lives in Michigan, which is part of the North's 13 SEER requirement.
https://www.achrnews.com/artic...onsiders-enforcement

For the area, it's really all that's needed (short AC season). The 13 SEER units are achieving 14 SEER with a variable speed blower.


Sorry, that’s not correct. That article you quoted is from 2014 and refers to DOE not the IRC which is the building code standard for the entire country and is updated yearly although each state usually only updates on a 3 year cycle. No state that I know of is building on the 2014 or earlier code.


------------------
Eddie

Our Founding Fathers were men who understood that the right thing is not necessarily the written thing. -kkina
 
Posts: 4025 | Location: SML & OBX | Registered: February 19, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go Vols!
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Everything in Michigan indicates 13 SEER minimum. Something interesting I found is that a central unit with a 13 designation can be configured to be more efficient based on all components used.
 
Posts: 15480 | Location: SE Michigan | Registered: February 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by smlsig:
quote:
Originally posted by Excam_Man:
quote:
Originally posted by smlsig:

- I’m surprised you were even quoted a 13 SEER system as these don’t even meet current building code minimums..


Negative, he lives in Michigan, which is part of the North's 13 SEER requirement.
https://www.achrnews.com/artic...onsiders-enforcement

For the area, it's really all that's needed (short AC season). The 13 SEER units are achieving 14 SEER with a variable speed blower.


Sorry, that’s not correct. That article you quoted is from 2014 and refers to DOE not the IRC which is the building code standard for the entire country and is updated yearly although each state usually only updates on a 3 year cycle. No state that I know of is building on the 2014 or earlier code.


Still negative.
This is not a HP, or a package unit and doesn't have to be Energy Star rated.

N1103.7 (R403.7) Equipment Sizing and Efficiency Ratings (Mandatory)
Heating and cooling equipment should be sized in accordance with ACCA
Manual S based on building loads calculated in accordance with ACCA
Manual J or other approved heating and cooling calculation methodologies.
New or replacement heating and cooling equipment shall have an efficiency
rating equal to or greater than the minimum required by federal law for the
geographical location of where the equipment is installed.



DOE requirements brochure (link to pdf file below):
https://www.google.com/url?sa=...&cshid=1565016797329




 
Posts: 7852 | Registered: October 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Just food for thought, building codes are adopted by the authority having jurisdiction over construction in each locality. That could be the state for unincorporated areas, and smaller towns, or cities, or even counties or parishes. While the codes in many areas can be similar, they can also vary wildly. Any pissing match over codes is a waste of time.

I do like the thought that a good installer can turn a piece of shit into a gem, and that conversely a bad installer will turn a gem into a piece of shit. While there is certainly some truth in the statement that the quality of the installer will effect the quality of the installation, much more would be a stretch.

I do love these HVAC threads, they remind me why I do not do any single family work.
 
Posts: 1370 | Location: Spokane, WA | Registered: June 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of bigdeal
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quote:
Originally posted by Stlhead:
I do like the thought that a good installer can turn a piece of shit into a gem...
I think this statement is hopelessly flawed. First, I don't think any HVAC equipment on the market today is 'shit'. There are some that are less complex and maybe even lesser quality (essential to meet differing customer price points), but if a manufacturer were turning out total 'shit', no one would sell or install their stuff. I think it is accurate to suggest that the quality of the installer 'is' one of the most important aspects of a new system install.
quote:
...and that conversely a bad installer will turn a gem into a piece of shit.
I think this is far more likely the case. And though its just my opinion, I believe there to be far more bad/incompetent/unethical installers than good ones out there, so finding the right guy to do your install really becomes challenging.


-----------------------------
Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter
 
Posts: 28443 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: April 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by lee40215:
Almost all the parts for every manufacturer are made by the same companies. You can’t relate equipment failures unless as stated before you know that it was installed properly and the homeowner kept up all the required maintenance. I have sold most the major brands and the only ones I shy away from are rheem and Rudd.


Since you mentioned some parts are made by the same manufacturers, what is the difference between a Trane compressor made by Copeland and a Copeland made for the other brands?


————————————————
Those who can, do. Those who can’t, manage.
 
Posts: 980 | Location: North And East Of The Big Chicken | Registered: November 18, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go Vols!
Picture of Oz_Shadow
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The install is done but I may have to have them come back. My unit is in a garage closet. I have extreme condensation on the bypass pipe, drain pipe and 4” new duct box everything sits on.

I now understand why my old system had a lot of 2” fiberglass insulation mats.

Should a new install in a garage include insulating the exposed ductwork?

The dew point has been in the 60s lately.
 
Posts: 15480 | Location: SE Michigan | Registered: February 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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