quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
Your birth sex is not a choice ~ homosexuality is a choice.

Not if you are wired that way at birth.

quote:

Originally posted by Hamden106:

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
Your birth sex is not a choice ~ homosexuality is a choice.

Not if you are wired that way at birth.

Yeah, I don't believe that any more than you get to choose your own sex.

Of course the title of this thread is true.

Sex and Gender aren't the same thing.

Sex is anatomical, and is decided for all humans by nature/biology well before someone is born.

Gender is a role, a function of sociological factors, and to some degree a choice.

The coaches-shorts wearing, softball-loving, mullet-having female PE teacher archetype is living proof that Sex and Gender are different and not necessarily in sync, and but one example of many.

Ones bits down there (an innie, or an outtie, or the rare variations) are not necessarily linked to ones persona, societal roles, roles in the bedroom, or anything else. No shit.

This aspect of these broader topics isn't particularly complicated nor controversial.

The controversial parts are when and if it's appropriate for parents to guide a kid in one direction or another, and whether it's appropriate for kids to decide for themselves, and things of that sort, none of which I support or advocate.

But adults have been choosing for themselves for ages, and many choose to live as a Gender that's different from their Sex, or somewhere along the spectrum since Gender isn't binary (nor is Sex, strictly speaking, since there are natural hermaphrodites).

Whatever happened to girls who were "tomboys" and dudes who might be a tad effeminate? Just because we have the medical technology to perform a sex change operation doesn't necessarily mean we should. The suicide rate among the "transgender community" is very high; even after the gender re-assignment surgery. Now they take more time to physiologically assess potential candidates for the surgery because it's not "solving" the problem. Um duh.

I do "enjoy" the left's 78 genders and all BS. Your gender is determined by which reproductive organs ones have.

quote:

Originally posted by Hamden106:
I have a family member who is trans. I can tell you that the drive within a person is NOT choice. Concept of choice only applies in fighting the drive within oneself, or to accept it and live a happy life. Fighting that drive is not a good choice.

Would providing the psychological definition of "delusional" allude to many discussion points at the next family get together?

Having a penis does not make you a man. It does make you male. A female can be a man, and a male can be a woman. If you have a penis you are a male, no matter how you dress, who you chose to lay with or even if you have lovely tits. There are no chicks with dicks, only dudes with tits. No need to make any special accommodations, If you have a willy go to the boys room, if you have a cunny go to little girls room, if you have both you can use the one that smells better. I could care less if a dude in a dress is using the urinal next to me as long as he does not piss on my leg.

So, if I identify as a woman then I can get a tax break for running a woman-owned business and pay myself 23% less, right?

Today, I've decided to be a monkey.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
Today, I've decided to be a monkey.

Don't tell sigmonkey, don't want any poo thrown at you...

Seriously, this is all about how someone feels. I feel like identifying as a.....dog today. So if I go in public with only a collar and leash on and piss on every fire hydrant and shit wherever I want, I'm going to be taken in for observation, not paraded around as a hero. I'll more than likely have some sort of mental diagnosis afterwards as well. Why the difference? Genetically, I'm not a dog, but why can't I identify as one?

quote:

"Today, I've decided to be a monkey."

You are still smarter than 44% of the population.

When people cannot even fathom basic biological facts, it is no wonder the End Times may indeed be right around the corner.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
homosexuality is a choice.

Tell me- when did you decide to be heterosexual?

I've known 3 transgendered folks over the years. All of them said that their earliest memories were that their bodies did not match how they viewed themselves. They didn't choose their gender, they knew what it was and it didn't match their sex.

Really small sample size but I it would suggest that both gender and sex are determined in the womb. And sometimes those two don't match.

Given that all human embryos start female and then have to be modified by the release of a specific hormone (that stops the embryo from become female), it isn't surprising to me that the process could go awry in some instances.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Horse shit

A large pile.

First off, I'm not a linguist, but I am a scientist, so my conclusions regarding language may be off, but regardless...

That being said, assign is a verb (which I understand in layman's terms to be an action, basically), so gender isn't assigned, no one has to act to decide your gender, it simply is. Gender isn't assigned at birth, it is simply announced, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Regressive SJWs like to redefine words with an established meaning in order to fool or guilt people into their false narrative, don't let them do it to you.

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
Of course the title of this thread is true.

Sex and Gender aren't the same thing.

Sex is anatomical, and is decided for all humans by nature/biology well before someone is born.

Gender is a role, a function of sociological factors, and to some degree a choice.

The coaches-shorts wearing, softball-loving, mullet-having female PE teacher archetype is living proof that Sex and Gender are different and not necessarily in sync, and but one example of many.

Ones bits down there (an innie, or an outtie, or the rare variations) are not necessarily linked to ones persona, societal roles, roles in the bedroom, or anything else. No shit.

This aspect of these broader topics isn't particularly complicated nor controversial.

The controversial parts are when and if it's appropriate for parents to guide a kid in one direction or another, and whether it's appropriate for kids to decide for themselves, and things of that sort, none of which I support or advocate.

But adults have been choosing for themselves for ages, and many choose to live as a Gender that's different from their Sex, or somewhere along the spectrum since Gender isn't binary (nor is Sex, strictly speaking, since there are natural hermaphrodites).

This gender versus sex thing falls in the same category. For most of the history of the language gender and sex did NOT mean anything different, the SJW crowd is trying to construct that new meaning again to convince people who know better that their narrative doesn't fly in the face of logic and reason. Bottom line, gender and sex are they same thing, and it is binary (literally X and Y, although I understand there are condition's like Klinefelter's Syndrome that result in rare combinations, but those combinations are still constructed of the two choices, in this case XXY), and it is not a choice.

So let's shoot down some of the common claims of "trans" people:

1.- "I am a man/woman trapped in [the opposite sex's] body."
Well, no you aren't. You are just you. The only thing "inside" of you is you, and you have no, and could not possibly have, any frame of reference to know what it would even feel like to be someone or something else. Your experience is yours alone, no one else can share it, and you can't share any one else's. If you feel like you are a stranger in your own body, thats a symptom of mental illness, the solution is likely a combination of therapy and medication, NOT to claim that you somehow are magically what you think you are for "reasons".

2.- "I simply feel like I am a man, instead of a woman."
Well, beside the obvious debunkings like "I feel like I'm twenty years older than I actually am, hook me up with that social security check" or "I feel like a astronaut so let me on this rocket to the ISS or so help me..." there is the completely logical debunk of "No, you DON'T feel like a man." SJWs are so damn wrapped up in identity politics that it bleeds into all aspects of their life. You are genetically male or female, biologically, but your thoughts and feelings, THEY DON'T HAVE A FUCKING GENDER. You can't possibly feel like I man, you can ONLY FEEL LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE YOU.

3.- "I am a man, despite being born a woman."
Once again, I guarantee that again in this person there will be an unwarranted connection between how they feel and their sex/gender. And once again I must reiterate that while your mood and personality can be influenced by biochemistry, your feelings and thoughts still don't belong to a gender, they simply belong to you.

So what is the solution? One, teach people that gender and sex are the same, and it is NOT a choice. Two, teach them that they should not let their gender define who they are or what they like to do, and should definitely not let anyone else try to tell them how they should act because of their gender. It is literally the defining of gender AS A ROLE that is an issue. Gender is not a role, and your role should not be defined by gender, it should be defined by your desires (and anyone who doesn't like it can fuck right off).

So no, 46and2, the title of this thread is NOT true, and is in fact demonstrably false. It is in teaching people that gender somehow defines one's role that create the damn issues in the first place. I guaran-god damn-tee that if we could do away with the idea of gender roles no one would give a flying fuck about their precious pronouns. But hey, that's just my take on it.

Excellent post Ianfiniti. Right on the money, and I agree with everything except this.

quote:

Originally posted by Ianfiniti:
... and should definitely not let anyone else try to tell them how they should act because of their gender. It is literally the defining of gender AS A ROLE that is an issue. Gender is not a role, and your role should not be defined by gender, it should be defined by your desires (and anyone who doesn't like it can fuck right off).

Men should act like men and women should act like women. Of course, that's just my opinion, I happen to be right, and I'll kindly fuck right off now.

I have a trans cousin and a gay son. Of our three boys, the youngest is gay. His two older brothers- the jock and the genius have tried "fixing" him several times. The jock tried to beat the gay out of him numerous times when we weren't around, and the genius tried to porn it out of him (he had some help from the jock on that one). Now that they are all in thier 20s they get along great. "J" is still gay, genius is a hipster and jock still gets in bar fights. I don't think its a choice. My wife always said J was "sensitive". I always said , no he's gay. When he came to us and said he was gay at 15, I said "DUH" and my wife said "I don't care, but your not gonna be walking around here talking like a cheerleader".

Now the trans cousin-- I don't know. Feels like a choice. We've always known she was a lesbian, and a very guy like one at that. I liked her as a lesbian, I can understand it. Now that shes a he, he/she is kind of confrontational about it. "He" demands to be called by a name other than what I've known her as for years. I think she has had her boobs cut off, but I can't exactly tell due to flannels and vests. I consider myself to be open to these things but the facial hair freaks me the fuck out. All of this feels like a choice to me.

Surgery and hormones for no medical reason is a choice the same as our youngest talking with a lisp for 30 seconds before his mother offered to slap it out of him. I did't choose to be straight, any more than my youngest choose to be gay. Just is. The cousin- well she is now a he and dating a girl(Same one as before the "change") Does that mean shes straight? Does that mean her girlfriend is no longer a lesbian?

People have cared about gender roles for as long as there's been civilization, including nowadays, whether it's in regard to military service in combat roles or equal pay for equal work or the right to vote or how one dresses or what toys they play with and a plethora of areas where many assert that there is a clear difference, beyond ones genitalia, between "men" and "women", that there are "guy things" and "girl things" that extend beyond penis vs vagina, and if you think it's weird for a 16yo boy to wear a dress, etc, then you do too...

And I despise SJWs, fwiw. My opinion isn't for them, from them, or related to them by anything other than coincidence. I have no agenda beyond trying to understand, be open minded, and a willingness to discuss these things, here or anywhere else. It costs me nothing to consider it, hurts no one here even if it is true, so what's the problem? I don't use or care about the pronoun game - you'll never, ever, hear me call someone Ze (wtf).

So, there's anatomy, and there's everything else, and if for no other reason than facilitating conversation about such things - we need a word for "everything else". And ultimately - I don't care what particular word we use to refer to "everything else beyond private parts", whether Gender or CottonCandy or anything else, but I've not problem using Gender in lieu of a clear and commonly accepted alternative, and I think it makes sense, and so I use it. Got a better one, with some evidence to back it up? Spit it out. I'll certainly consider it.

Not long ago such Gender roles were reinforced on most sitcoms, from Leave It To Beaver to the rest. Terms and phrases like tomboy, man up, don't be a pussy, barefoot and in the kitchen, and the rest indicate there are clear and common ideas as to what constitutes being a man or woman, and in ways that clearly extend beyond their anatomy.

So what do you suggest?

Don't believe it. I think people are born with their sexual orientation. They can also be born cross gendered (physically one, mentally the other.)

The question is what should be done about it.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
Your birth sex is not a choice ~ homosexuality is a choice.