Turkey and Greece joined NATO in 1952. So by definition, Turkey is an ally. Reality, not so much.

Retired military here. I wish I could figure out what our “vital interests” are in that cesspool known as the MidEast.

OK, yeah, I get the oil thing, but guess what, we are producing more oil thru cracking and other means than we need and that’s what we are exporting it. OK, yeah the Euros need foreign oil for their economies, but they’ve screwed themselves about this, what between the Russian oil deals and importing all those “refugees” that are nothing more than a Third World Army in mufti.

As Kurt Schliter has said, “But mostly you see it when the President avoids new wars no matter how hard the smart set demands he create his own quagmire. Iran has been ham-handedly trying to provoke a fight by poking our allies. Trump won’t bite. He sees the trap. And in Syria, he is keeping his promise to leave. There’s always a good reason for going into these conflicts (ISIS is bad), and there’s always a good reason to stay (Many Kurds are fine people). But there are better reasons to pack up and leave. The phase “endless war” used to be irritating, except then it became clear that’s exactly what many foreign policy “experts” are advocating. If your exit criteria for closing out some overseas adventure is “We can leave when things are stable” in a place that hasn’t been stable in 5000 years, you are advocating for “endless war.”

“Getting out of wars requires getting out of wars. And sometimes, it’s going to be ugly. But unless you can explain to the family of a dead soldier why it’s worth it to stay, it’s not worth it to stay. The American people, at least those who aren’t in DC or the media, understand that every problem around the world is not our problem. If you’re one of those Citizens of the World, then feel free to enlist in the Army of the World. Just count us out of your bloody altruism.”

https://townhall.com/columnist...erica-first-n2554625

If you or any one else think that what took us 3000 years to develop through the Greeks, Romans, Dark & Middle Ages, Renaissance & Enlightment, not to mention the last 250 years of History, can be handed off to a bunch of Third Worlders after only 25 years, then you are sadly mistaken.

John Quincy Adams said it best, “Whenever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will be America’s heart, her benedictions and her prayers. But she does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the wellwisher to freedom and independence for all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She well knows that by once enlisting other banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extridition, in all wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy and ambition which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom….She might become the dictress of the world but would no longer be ruler of her own spirit….Americans should not go abroad to slay dragons they do not understand in the name of spreading democracy.”

“America First”. Yeah, I know, that was the tag line from the 1930s that the Wilsonian interventionists like to drag out to discredit because it led to the 1940s; but it is still valid today. It is way beyond time to GET THE FUCK OUT of that hellhole.

And NATO is an “defensive alliance”; once a NATO member goes on the offense and starts a war, they are on their own. No more “blank check” alliances; that’s how World War 1 (Great War) started in 1914.

There has no declaration of war sanctioned by the US Congress in the area. Pulling our guys out is the right thing to do. Have Congress make a decision if we need our troops there.

And when or if they do, Congress needs to step away and allow the military do it’s job w/o ridiculous ROEs.

We are not the world police

Going into Syria without a cogent plan for how to get out was a huge mistake. Withdrawing suddenly without warning or plan is a huge mistake. Not thinking the Kurds, who want to live and will take the lesser of two evils, wouldn't side with the Syrian government against the Turks is a huge mistake. Not thinking that the Kurds, as a big FU to the US government might just leave the ISIS camps without guards is a huge mistake.

But this is now the situation. The Kurds and the Syrian/Russian/Iranian alliance are lining up against Turkey, a NATO ally. There needs to be people who are ACTUALLY THINKING about the real world consequences of these events, not gauging "The Base's" response. And I mean this for both Administration and the Opposition. This kind of thing is how real wars start.

In some senses it doesn't really matter how we got into the situation, it matters how we get out of it. And what's the solution? Clearly articulate a real, clear plan that everyone involved in KNOWS to be the plan and stick to that. If its abandon Turkey if it comes to a shooting war, then the Turks better know that before they get into one. If its back up Turkey and hope for the best, then put our best people on fixing the cluster @#$% that was made and cool this situation off. And no matter what, we better be getting our people out ASAP because, no matter whether they should have been there in the first place or not, they need to get out of there now before they are in the middle of something that drags the US into something we shouldn't be in.

"This business is going to get out of control. Its going to get out of control and we will be lucky to live through it."

Economic warfare is almost always preferable to actual warfare - particularly when it involves US troops and somewhere far, far away..


Trump’s Syrian Maneuver Works – President Erdogan Asks for Negotiations With Kurds in Syria…
Posted on October 14, 2019 by sundance

President Trump has played this out perfectly. By isolating Turkish President Recep Erdogan, and effectively leaving him naked to an alliance of his enemies, Erdogan is now urgently asking for the U.S. to mediate peace negotiations with Kurdish forces.

This request happens immediately after President Trump signed an executive order. triggering the sanction authority of Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin. Erdogan called the White House requesting an urgent phone call with President Trump.

After President Trump talked to Kurdish General Mazloum Kobani Abdi, the commander of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces, President Trump then discussed the options available to President Erdogan. As a result of that conversation, Erdogan requested the U.S. mediate negotiations. Vice-President Mike Pence announces he will be traveling to the region with National Security Advisor Robert O’Brien to lead that effort

https://theconservativetreehou...-with-kurds-insyria/

EO is here:

https://publicpool.kinja.com/s...and-suspe-1839040667

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
There has no declaration of war sanctioned by the US Congress in the area.

Mike...you mention "Declaration of War". I had this question in the Kurds thread some days ago that went unanswered. Maybe you or other very learned in military matters can answer it for me.

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:
Question...

In U.S. Military History, a formal "Declaration of War" was not presented to Congress during the Vietnam "War". I was just a kid, but in growing up and lightly studying the era and history, everyone can agree that it turned in to a total shit storm (Captain Obvious).

Having said that, why did President Bush NOT seek a formal Declaration of War against Iraq or whatever other country he deemed responsible for the attacks on 11-SEP 2001? Why has the leadership avoided that formality for the past 50+ years?

Lastly, would passing a formal Declaration of War "ease" things on our military as in CLEARLY define the ROE's and what is done with subversive combatants, i.e., the same exact scenario faced by our troops in Vietnam...cool Asian friend by day; stealthy, cunning Charlie SOB by night. In the ME, we have cool Arab buddy by day; brutal IED-planting, head-sawing off jihadist MFer by night.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
There has no declaration of war sanctioned by the US Congress in the area. Pulling our guys out is the right thing to do. Have Congress make a decision if we need our troops there.

And when or if they do, Congress needs to step away and allow the military do it’s job w/o ridiculous ROEs.

We are not the world police

War against who? Seriously, who are we declaring war against? And that's why Congress refuses to have anything to do with these decisions other than talking about it on TV. Because they have no freakin' idea who we would declare war against. No one has the right answer here, and anyone who pretends to know what to do or how to fix that shithole or what the outcomes will be is likely full of it.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
GTFO, yesterday.

Kurds are just the socialist devil we know, but they are FAR from being 'on our side'.

This. The Turks are not our "allies " and neither are the Kurds. We have no definitive objective, other than "to fight terrorism." We have no strategic interests there, none, not remotely. We have already spent enough blood and gold, as have countless other governments through ages, trying to fix what cannot be fixed, and worse, with not even half measures. The Turkish government and Erdoğan were hell-bent, from the beginning, in their current action, and nothing we do or say could stop them. Having a thousand or so more than precious American lives in the way was pointless, and even dangerous, because the fifteen or twenty thousand Turks rolling over the northern border would in no way be inclined to slow down because of us - not any. Zip. Bravo Mr. President. Sure, good people will die - we seem to be astonished in the press that innocent people are dying in a real conflict where real bullets and bombs are flying. That's called "war." If atrocities are committed, we need to take notes, take names, and take revenge. Later. It discourages repetition. Good people would die if we stay too. Ours. It's a fool's choice, and the President made exactly the right one.

The next step is to take our hand out of the Middle East briar patch, and work with our true allies to formulate an aggressive strategy to crush our true enemies - whom we know - through proxy, which we are doing - and not the Kurds. And to warn any interlopers to stand clear, or we will deal with them too. Harshly. With this President, they just might listen. My fervent hope is that there would be no press coverage of the region - zero - for at least a year. But that is all lost with our current collection of idiots in Congress, of both stripes, randomly fucking up the possibility at every turn. God help us and Mr. Trump.

Under the “old system” of Constitutional Government, BOTH Houses of Congress (Reps for the people, and Senate for the various States before the 17th Amendment made the Senate a supernumerary House of Rep) had to vote in favor of a Declaration of War. This would show the total involvement in the entire American nation (people and States), and not just one or two factions that controlled various branches or departments of government.
Congress has abrogated its responsibility for this to the Executive.

Thanks to our Sig Forum veterans for discussing this issue. I am learning a lot from you all.

quote:

Originally posted by 2BobTanner:
Under the “old system” of Constitutional Government, BOTH Houses of Congress (Reps for the people, and Senate for the various States before the 17th Amendment made the Senate a supernumerary House of Rep) had to vote in favor of a Declaration of War. This would show the total involvement in the entire American nation (people and States), and not just one or two factions that controlled various branches or departments of government.
Congress has abrogated its responsibility for this to the Executive.

EJR. ^ there’s your answer. And some responsibility cannot be handed off to underlings.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
lastly - the troops we have there are PROFESSIONALs. we aren't talking about 19 year old draftees there who only joined for the college fund. strategic-level operators doing what they trained years to do - basically - no place they'd rather be plying their chosen profession.

Tell that to the guys who have deployed 12 times in the last 15 years.

They'd rather be home more often rather than watching the indigenous adult males sexual abuse kids and goats, and beat the women, all in a tangled shit hole of a region.

I speak from experience that is valuable and rewarding to practice your trade for real, but when faced with doing it again for 5 out of the next 7 years, my choice was "Check please"

Not one more drop of American blood should be shed to try to stabilize people who have been killing each other since the dawn of time. And use their religious or tribal motivations as excuse to slaughter each other. If there is is a genuine, legitimate active threat to America, then commit fully to the complete, total and rapid destruction of that threat.
Otherwise, leave the jackals to themselves.

I’d like all of the nukes out of Incirlik as soon as possible while we figure out the rest of the Syrian problem.

YooperSigs said it as well as it can be said period. :thumbsup:

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
What are the VITAL U.S. interests that we need to fight for? Is it to prevent future terrorist acts?

If so, that could apply to most any action.

Hopefully these actions don’t begin the ISIS get out of jail free card!MG

That region is a black hole that will suck resources (human and material), riches, alliances, and national will (if there is much of that left) that are better left to more strategic fights to come. I’m sure our SF guys are pissed because they’ve fought hard and made promises in order to further an objective that is like sand in the wind. It’s not in their DNA to cut bait. I was only enlisted when I served but to me, Syria offers exactly dick in the grand scheme of things and we’ve spent more than our share already and don’t need to start Cold War #2. Russia would love to see us spend out and dry up like they did after Afghanistan. But then again, what do I know...

Unless NATO is going to go against Turkey, Iraq and even Iran and create Kurdistan out of pieces of land from each, and then defend it with boots on the ground, Kosov out of Serbia, the Kurds will remain fucked.

I do not see it happening. So why are we there - other than action of the Hildebeast with Obama and his Arab spring shit?

ISIS - we created them, left them weapons, then armed others to fight them. Gen. Smedley Butler was right; 'War is a racket.'

So, our SF OPS there are pissed. It's natural to put sweat, blood and tears in to something, get to know the people very well, and then have to leave them, mission unfinished.

Basically, the Turkish PM told Trump, GTFO, because we are coming regardless. There have been incidents already, where Turkish forces attacked Kurds with embedded US Special Ops.

We needed Turkey to over the southern flank of NATO to protect the oil and secure access to keep the Soviets in the Black Sea - WWI reason that Germany made friends with the Turks (plus to protect German investment and counter British influence in the region), and Oil of course.

Do we still need Turkey? Well, a secular Turkey as created by Ataturk, yes, but what has been happening there now for the past 20 years - crap.

China is the real threat. ISIS is just a backwater - yes it is a pain, but not like China. Russia is a military threat only. China is a multi faceted threat.

Sleep well.

This part of the world has been sucking the life out of the US for decades.
Our presence clearly can’t fix what’s wrong there. We wanted to fix it, we tried over and over. Didn’t happen and we really aren’t making progress in the big picture.
Let it suck the life out of our adversaries now.
You can’t help those that won’t help themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
lastly - the troops we have there are PROFESSIONALs. we aren't talking about 19 year old draftees there who only joined for the college fund. strategic-level operators doing what they trained years to do - basically - no place they'd rather be plying their chosen profession.

Tell that to the guys who have deployed 12 times in the last 15 years.

They'd rather be home more often rather than watching the indigenous adult males sexual abuse kids and goats, and beat the women, all in a tangled shit hole of a region.

I speak from experience that is valuable and rewarding to practice your trade for real, but when faced with doing it again for 5 out of the next 7 years, my choice was "Check please"

thank you for your service. but it's what you signed up for. we are talking about strategic impact of presidential decisions not the personal ramifications at the soldier level. since the start of the GWOT the optempo for SOF has always been crazy high. that likely will not change anytime soon. everyone who undergoes the training knows that 110% going in. in the end - it's a volunteer job.

honestly - in a 'slow burn' war like we are in now - spending 20 years in SF is probably unrealistic for the reasons you mentioned but that's a whole other conversation.

and the talk of 'sucking up our resources'... with a GDP of $19+ TRILLION - what percentage of that is being consumed by involvement in Northern Iraq?

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