For many reasons I'm against convenience abortion. If you don't care for the term, understand that when I say convenience I mean that the abortion seeker chose to have sexual intercourse without protection, knowing that happens to be the means by which humans get preggers. So now you are a healthy pregnant female, but that isn't fitting into your life plan and you want to abort.

I believe, just as Para said, that these laws are being passed to pull society back to an age where girls simply were more responsible and used protection or abstained from sex. Statistics for the '70's versus today don't tell me much, except that the abortion rate exploded from 1970 (52 per 1000 live births) to 1971 (137 per 1000 live births). Show me stats from the '50's versus today, and I'd bet they were fewer than even the 52/1000 rate.

Why? Girls knew it was shameful and were generally more cautious, IMO. They dreaded being shamed, being forced out. I'm not saying I'd do that to one of my girls, but they by God know that there would be hell to pay.

quote:

Originally posted by bigmule:

Tragic situation for many many Americans in the back waters In Alabama.
The abortion piece is only the hook here. Look at the rest of the services axed by this partisan bullshit.

I sense an uptick in gut punched daughters in Alabama...
stoopid backward political horse shit.

Relax. The bill is essentially unenforceable. Until this goes back to the Supreme Court (if it does), nothing will change.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

When states try and regulate abortion by making it so that facilities have to be clean, inspected, and up to medical standards, some judge rules that's too restrictive and an undue burden on the abortion provider. Now, abortion clinics don't really have to meet any health standards.

When a state tries and regulate abortion so that a healthcare professional must be the one that performs it, some judge rules that's an undue burden on the person receiving the abortion. Now, midwives, and even less qualified persons, can perform abortion.

When a state tries and regulate abortion by requiring the that the person who performs it have admitting privileges to a hospital so a woman who has one of the many serious or life threatening complications that often arise, some judge rules that is burden on everyone involved. So now, many women who are injured by the procedure are simply sent home to deal with the complications of this traumatic surgery on their own.

Name one state where someone who is not a medical professional can perform an abortion. I believe most require them to be performed by licensed physicians, but lets include nurse practioners or regisgered nurses. Name one state where someone not one of those three can perform an abortion legally. Give us a citation to some reliable source.

Also, name a state where an abortion can be performed in some totally unregulated facility, with a citation. There are many where hospitals are not required, just as laser eye surgery, putting tubes in kid's ears, etc. don't have to be done at the hospital. But name one state where the facility gets no state supervision/regulation.

I think you believe things that aren't true.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by bigmule:

Tragic situation for many many Americans in the back waters In Alabama.
The abortion piece is only the hook here. Look at the rest of the services axed by this partisan bullshit.

I sense an uptick in gut punched daughters in Alabama...
stoopid backward political horse shit.

Relax. The bill is essentially unenforceable. Until this goes back to the Supreme Court (if it does), nothing will change.

I’m good. Sleeping it off.

Hmmm... I'm thinking it might make a good band name: The Alabama Abortion Ban Band

AmIrite?

No

This is just a state exercising their 10th Amendment rights in the area of abortion.

If Roe is overturned, then each state will go through their own poitical process to determine if abortion is permitted, permitted in some cases, banned outright or something else. This is result that flows, rather naturally, when you invoke the 10th Amendment.

Some states, such as CA, would not be affected if Roe were overturned since they already have abortion rights guaranteed.

This is political process with political results. If the people in Alabama don't like this law, they can correct it by electing different represntatives who will change it.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

When states try and regulate abortion by making it so that facilities have to be clean, inspected, and up to medical standards, some judge rules that's too restrictive and an undue burden on the abortion provider. Now, abortion clinics don't really have to meet any health standards.

When a state tries and regulate abortion so that a healthcare professional must be the one that performs it, some judge rules that's an undue burden on the person receiving the abortion. Now, midwives, and even less qualified persons, can perform abortion.

When a state tries and regulate abortion by requiring the that the person who performs it have admitting privileges to a hospital so a woman who has one of the many serious or life threatening complications that often arise, some judge rules that is burden on everyone involved. So now, many women who are injured by the procedure are simply sent home to deal with the complications of this traumatic surgery on their own.

Name one state where someone who is not a medical professional can perform an abortion. I believe most require them to be performed by licensed physicians, but lets include nurse practioners or regisgered nurses. Name one state where someone not one of those three can perform an abortion legally. Give us a citation to some reliable source.

Also, name a state where an abortion can be performed in some totally unregulated facility, with a citation. There are many where hospitals are not required, just as laser eye surgery, putting tubes in kid's ears, etc. don't have to be done at the hospital. But name one state where the facility gets no state supervision/regulation.

I think you believe things that aren't true.

They may or may not be true now, but things are certainly headed that way.

no doctor needed- link


Varying regulations- link

In Oregon, some abortion centers are not regulated while some are. Link

To me this all boils down to whether personhood is in utero. If it is, then abortion is murder. If it is murder any argument for abortion is immoral. Murder especially for convenience is evil and threatens all of humanity.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
To me this all boils down to whether personhood is in utero. If it is, then abortion is murder. If it is murder any argument for abortion is immoral. Murder especially for convenience is evil and threatens all of humanity.

For me, not so black and white. It's just a gooey clump of cells for a few weeks. Then becomes an embryo, which develops an electric pulse from something that is not yet a developed organ. From there tiny buds grow that will eventually become arms and legs. I don't need to fully describe embryonic and fetal development, but we all know its a process. Point being, at some point it becomes a life, and becomes a person. I think this open for interpretation and personal opinion. This is why I am not opposed to abortion in the first 6-8 weeks.

quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:
This is just a state exercising their 10th Amendment rights in the area of abortion.

If Roe is overturned, then each state will go through their own poitical process to determine if abortion is permitted, permitted in some cases, banned outright or something else. This is result that flows, rather naturally, when you invoke the 10th Amendment.

Some states, such as CA, would not be affected if Roe were overturned since they already have abortion rights guaranteed.

This is political process with political results. If the people in Alabama don't like this law, they can correct it by electing different represntatives who will change it.

Yep.
Federalism.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:
This is just a state exercising their 10th Amendment rights in the area of abortion.

If Roe is overturned, then each state will go through their own poitical process to determine if abortion is permitted, permitted in some cases, banned outright or something else. This is result that flows, rather naturally, when you invoke the 10th Amendment.

Some states, such as CA, would not be affected if Roe were overturned since they already have abortion rights guaranteed.

This is political process with political results. If the people in Alabama don't like this law, they can correct it by electing different represntatives who will change it.

Yep.
Federalism.

Yep, and ain't never gonna happen. As much as ROE 'should' be set aside, it likely never will be. And I suspect the federal government will continue to whittle down the 10th amendment to a point where it no longer really exists. They're not far from that outcome today.

IANAL, and I ask this question in honest ignorance: Are there Federal laws against murder (not of Federal employees, just random people)? If Billy murders Joey in CA, he is subject to prosecution from the state of CA for murder. Is he also subject to prosecution by the Federal government? I understand double jeopardy, but could either government prosecute him for the murder, or is it only the state in that example?

I can’t help but think abortion ought to be decided by the states rather than the Feds.

I am personally somewhat conflicted. I think it is a horrible choice to make, but I cannot get behind foreclosing that choice in all instances. I’d rather see it be a whole lot more rare, driven by morals rather than government.

I fear Alabama’s “trick” of passing this laws to force SC action is not going to work out like they hope (jhe888 has a nasty habit of being right about this legal stuff). I also have some concern that as some other folks have pointed out it backfire politically in a big way. Sigh, time will tell...

quote:

Originally posted by zipriderson:

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
To me this all boils down to whether personhood is in utero. If it is, then abortion is murder. If it is murder any argument for abortion is immoral. Murder especially for convenience is evil and threatens all of humanity.

For me, not so black and white. It's just a gooey clump of cells for a few weeks. Then becomes an embryo, which develops an electric pulse from something that is not yet a developed organ. From there tiny buds grow that will eventually become arms and legs. I don't need to fully describe embryonic and fetal development, but we all know its a process. Point being, at some point it becomes a life, and becomes a person. I think this open for interpretation and personal opinion. This is why I am not opposed to abortion in the first 6-8 weeks.

Watch Abby Johnson on youtube. She was a Planned Parenthood clinic director for years. She describes what she knows of abortion in the first few weeks of development. It is not as you describe.

It almost seems as this was made as draconian as possible for some reason, anyone else get this sense about it?

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
It almost seems as this was made as draconian as possible for some reason, anyone else get this sense about it?

Yes, the Radical Right & Left should get together and have a party - they are just on opposite sides of the same coin, while the rest of us live on the edges of the coin.

Abortion should be legal.

Suicide should be legal.

Firearms should be legal.

A whole lot of things should be left up to individuals.

Frankly, I personally would not want my wife, girlfriend, mistress, or SO to have an abortion. But if they wanted to, we'd talk about it. They might want to consult eachother.

If you want to have an abortion, that is your business.

If more people minded their business, we'd all be better for it.

do you suppose the "Safe Haven's" at the hospital's and fire stations will be installing
conveyor belt's , ?
like at the grocery store check out
to accept all of the unwanted kids that people will be turning in.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
It almost seems as this was made as draconian as possible for some reason, anyone else get this sense about it?

Did you read my comments on the previous page of this thread?

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

If more people minded their business, we'd all be better for it.

But they're doing it different from me, and that's wrong!