The FNH Five-seveN (5.7mm X 28mm) is an interesting choice.

First, it has a large capacity magazine (20+1). Well-suited if you want to kill a lot of people quickly. (This may re-surface in the 10 round magazine argument).

Second, the round is known for penetration: ideal for shooting people in body armor (police). The round choice may have contributed to the high number of wounded: people behind or under a target are going to be hit by a round that "overpenetrates."

As someone else said, not cheap -- lists on Gallery of Guns for $1,237.50 -- why spend the money on it unless you know it has some advantage you want in your plan? Not a common weapon -- how did he even know to buy it?

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
Tank feels as I do. Ironic the guy does not want to "go to war and kill" so he kills his fellow man and comrades, whom he took more than one oath to defend, the Hippocratic and the Oath of Office as U.S. Army Officer.

Thank you - I didn't understand it - faulty grasp of meaning on my part and I absolutely apologize for my misinterpretation.

The 5.7 cartridge is ballistically similar to a .22 Magnum fired from a rifle length barrel. The "cop killer" BS is just that, BS. The "vest penetrating" ammunition isn't commercially available in the US. He could theoretically have bought it because somebody recomended it because of low recoil. Maybe a gunshop commando.

quote:

Originally posted by Mister Joshua:
Damnit... although I truly do not believe this was racially motivated.......

You are right, it was not racially motivated, it was religiously motivated! He "Went Akbar" and took out as many infidels as possible. White, black, hispanic, asian, male, female....it's what they do!

According to Gunblast, in the longer barreled PS90, the FNH 5.7X28mm SS195LF round pushes a 27.5 gr bullet at 2320 feet per second. The Elite "PenetraTOR" round pushes a 55 gr bullet at 1743 fps.

"Starting with the concept of the 5.7x28mm cartridge, FNH wanted a superior round for close combat that would offer better penetration of soft armor and hard barriers than would the popular 9mm NATO cartridge commonly used by military troops in their personal sidearms, subguns, and machine pistols. The 5.7x28mm uses a relatively lightweight bullet at relatively high velocity, compared to other military or personal defense sidearms. In hard targets, velocity is what penetrates."

PS90 bbl is 16 inches long. The 5.7 pistol bbl is 4.8 inches. Apples to apples, and whatnot.

Unless he had some access to back channels that a typical psychiatrist wouldn't have, he'd be stuck with essentially commercial ball ammo, which in that caliber would be like being shot with an ice pick. Not intrinsically lethal, but the mortality can result from a large amount of internal bleeding and entry wounds that are hard to find as they essentially seal themselves, making it really tough to find and get to internal bleeds. But that requires a lot of essential organs and blood vessels getting hit, otherwise it's like taking a hit from a round of 5.56 ball.

I'm wondering if a gun-store "expert" saw an opportunity to move a niche, high-priced gun to someone with more cash and desperation than knowledge. How often do military doctors actually have to qualify and with what?

People who intend to live after doing something like this don't give away all their stuff, including their Koran. No one has said that none of his injuries weren't self-inflicted. Cho, Klebold and Harris, and a slew of others planned on their own deaths as part of the event and made no plans to escape or survive.

It's a fast round out of the pistol, though less so than out of the carbine.

It looks like FN initially advertised that the round was designed to defeat body armor (according to the DHS Officer Safety Alert 007-05). The Brady Campaign (ugh!) ran tests where it allegedly defeated a Level IIa vest.

****

It would be interesting to find out when he bought it -- if it was part of plotting for this event. The FBI presumably has talked to the salesman who sold it to him and asked about that conversation. Doesn't matter, I guess, whether he thought it would have some particularly lethal effects or he just bought it because it was there. The 20 round magazine in this situation may become part of the argument for a renewed 10 round magazine law.

quote:

Originally posted by RoverSig:
According to Gunblast, in the longer barreled PS90, the FNH 5.7X28mm SS195LF round pushes a 27.5 gr bullet at 2320 feet per second. The Elite "PenetraTOR" round pushes a 55 gr bullet at 1743 fps.

"Starting with the concept of the 5.7x28mm cartridge, FNH wanted a superior round for close combat that would offer better penetration of soft armor and hard barriers than would the popular 9mm NATO cartridge commonly used by military troops in their personal sidearms, subguns, and machine pistols. The 5.7x28mm uses a relatively lightweight bullet at relatively high velocity, compared to other military or personal defense sidearms. In hard targets, velocity is what penetrates."

Those velocity stats are quite staggering for a carry-able and concealable 20 round semi-automatic polymer pistol. I think the last sentence summarizes it perfectly:

"In hard targets, velocity is what penetrates."

This guy was planning a shooting spree on an active military base comprised of some of the most deployed combat soldiers in our military. He was obviously planning it, it was not spur of the moment.

He was a graduate of Virginia Tech, same as Sueng-Hui Cho who killed 32 people there in 2007. I think that was symbolic to Hasan as he was a graduate of Virgina Tech himself. Plus, look at their approaches. Cho had killed 32 people wielding dual semi-automatic 9mm pistols if I remember correctly. 32 people is and may still be a record number of people for a shooting spree massacre on U.S. soil if I'm not mistaken. I believe this lunatic looked at Cho and the Virginia Tech massacre and saw a solid and effective plan of action with the pistol(s) as opposed to a rifle or even rifle/pistol combo
and figured the FN 5.7mm pistol was the right choice. A military offier who didn't like guns or shooting "just so happens" to pick out one of if not the most lethal semi-auto pistols? No way.

--Kyle

Two things sure to happen. Anti-gun fools will demonize the FN. Others, believing the guns will be banned, will rush out and buy them.

quote:

Originally posted by RoverSig:
(according to the DHS Officer Safety Alert 007-05). The Brady Campaign (ugh!) ran tests where it allegedly defeated a Level IIa vest.

So will a +p 9mm, a 357SIG, a 357 magnum, and a 44 magnum, among others.

BTW both the SS192 (the ammo that the Brady Bunch tested) and SS196 failed to penetrate Kevlar vests when tested by FNH USA.

It seems to me that the 5.7 round offers more of what people disdain about the 9mm FMJ.

quote:

Originally posted by sendec:
Unless he had some access to back channels that a typical psychiatrist wouldn't have, he'd be stuck with essentially commercial ball ammo, which in that caliber would be like being shot with an ice pick. Not intrinsically lethal, but the mortality can result from a large amount of internal bleeding and entry wounds that are hard to find as they essentially seal themselves, making it really tough to find and get to internal bleeds. But that requires a lot of essential organs and blood vessels getting hit, otherwise it's like taking a hit from a round of 5.56 ball.

I'm wondering if a gun-store "expert" saw an opportunity to move a niche, high-priced gun to someone with more cash and desperation than knowledge. How often do military doctors actually have to qualify and with what?

People who intend to live after doing something like this don't give away all their stuff, including their Koran. No one has said that none of his injuries weren't self-inflicted. Cho, Klebold and Harris, and a slew of others planned on their own deaths as part of the event and made no plans to escape or survive.

Sort screws up his "my cheese slid off my cracker" defense.

He thought about it for days in advance, and with his backround in his profession, what part of his own "advice" on getting help did he ignore.

"Akbared" or not, he fails on the "may I be excused for crazy" test.

Try him on the following evidence,
and answer the following questions.

1. Did he shoot?
2. Did he kill?
3. Was he active duty?
4. Did he kill active duty members?
5. Was he in a combat environment engeged with an enemy?

Then take him directly to the firing squad or the qallows and be done with him.

Before the sun rises on Veteran's Day...

And, yes, I am serious and believe it would not violate any rights under the U.S. Constitution.

The coward had too many opportunities to deal with this an a better manner, and failed repeatedly.

I have many friend who have snakes in their heads from some serious bad crap that they endured in real battle, not playground taunts that this drek claimed as a reason, and none of them ever went out and inflicted this kind of hurt on others.

Some drank themselves to death, some drugged themselves to death. Some have just fallen off the edge of the earth, and some took their own lives.

Maybe hurt the ones that loved them, because they could not cope to the degree other's required, but I never knew any of them who hurt others maliciously.

I have absolutely no pity, nor sorrow for this useless garbage and what he has done.

And the injury to the psyche of the greater American Military Family and all it is, exceeds my ability to express.

My flag hangs heavy, 13 black ribbons....

And please pray for all who are hurting.

May the memories of those who are no more, be for a blessing, and may the injured recover speedily.

Shalom.

^^^^^
Lethal Injection is mandated by the DOD.

Does the UCMJ even address competency or insanity as requirements for trial or as a defense?

Interesting article in Army Times noting some people were shot and didn't know it right away - probably typical of small caliber, high-velocity rounds that do not hit bone or the heart.

Also noted in the Army Times article the kudos for Sgt. Kimberly Munley, who apparently had the close-up face-to-face confrontation with the shooter that ended the event. She hit him four times while being shot three times (twice in the left leg, once in the right wrist).

Many question the how's and why's of the FN57. How many gun forums have pages and pages of which is more effective...?

A google search can narrow the selection on which is most effective; plus don't forget that this guy probably heard a lot of discussion about guns from the soldiers he was treating.

quote:

Originally posted by oilpatch29:
CNN refered to it as a "cop killer" gun.

That's what happened here awhile back when a local PD busted guy with a little dope and he had a Five-Seven. They made a big deal on the news about the Cop Killer Bullets and showed the ammmo. The ammo was the sporting rounds but the PD didn't seem to know the difference. Our local Gun Forum called the TV station and PD and told them they didn't know what they were talking about.

Below is a email I got from the PD after the checked out our info.

To Whom It May Concern:

Please accept this letter as a formal retraction for information provided to you in reference to the press release provided to you by this office. Previously, this office advised that the 5.7 X 28 ammunition that was seized during a narcotics arrest were known as “Cop Killers”. After further investigation, it was discovered that this particular ammo cannot penetrate the protective body armor commonly used by law enforcement officers. We apologize for this oversight. It is not the practice of this department to provide inaccurate information. Thank you and please contact us if you have any questions.

Sincerely,

Sgt. Chris Dufour

Walker Police Department

I've shot the 5.7 before I even knew what it was and I thought it was a joy to shot. It surprised the hell out of me, a loud crack, very little recoil and extremely accurate. I was on the track of getting one for quite a while before I came to my senses and bought an AR wth the same $.

As has been mentioned, the armor piercing ammo is not available domestically. He may have been misinformed about how deadly this round is, or the pentration factor anyway, just like much of the media and public is.

I understand the the bullet can cause a great deal of damage, not from expansion but from the tumbling it does after penetration.

He did prove that even though he may have not been using armor piercing rounds, it is plenty deadly.

the ammo is already for sale in the classified section LOL.. That was Quick!!!