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Not clouded in the least. Or maybe I just need to do it for a few more decades in order to come to your level of understanding of how fire works.

So far as "could have stopped it and let it go for federal funds," that's not how fire funding works.

Of curiosity, how many fires have you fought in which the firefighters decided to "let it go" in order to collect federal funds? Yeah, me either.

Intersting that the raging and ranting has been that there's too much fire suppression, putting fires out and not letting them burn...and at the same time the accusations run rife that firefighters are not doing their job. Or worse, are doing the opposite of their job.

Now, there are many occasions when fire operations use differing tactics; letting or directing the fire to burn to a natural barrier, setting fires to create firebreaks with firing operations, backburns, etc. There are many occasions when fires are fought with hand crews in the morning because the fire behavior doesn't justify other resources, but the fire blows up later, and there are plenty of cases in which fire behavior changed.

The accusation that firefighters let a fire go for the express purpose of "getting federal funds" is idiotic, and I'd love to see the evidence. I'm not big on speculation, guesswork, or accusations that lack evidence.

When federal funding is attached to fire operations, which it is throughout the west presently, the fire charges are complex and it's not simply a matter of big fires get "federal funds" while small ones don't. It doesn't work that way. Resources are charged to the fire, and it comes back to ownship of the fire and the property that's burning. Much of that goes on for months or a year after the fire, so the idea that a fire is let go "to get federal funds" smacks of ignorance.
 
Posts: 5157 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Green grass and
high tides
Picture of old rugged cross
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Up till a couple of decades ago fire fighting was an actual thing. Other than hotshots and aerial firefighting little actual ground fire fighting takes place. Other than initial attack aerial fire fighting much of it (not all) might as well be dropping $100 bill on the fire.

The huge bureaucracy of setting up huge camps, cycling non stop crews in from all over the country on a fire they allow to get big enough to matter has been happening for years in the west. Bring in hundreds of support staff. Feeding crews big breakfast's and keeping them on the compound till late morning and bring back in early in the afternoon when activity peaks and preparing them a huge dinner is daily sop. Virtually nothing is accomplished except huge paydays for those included at the hog trough. It is so obvious that these are huge money making ventures and they keep them going as long as they possibly can. The command sit around and watch these fires destroy communities and habitat at an unbelievable level. They have not interest in putting these fires out. There interest is to manage them and we have seen how that works out.

Many folks get signed up with the forest service with some kind of rig and gets paid thousands and never even gets close to the fire or provide any kind of support in the effort of suppressing the fire. May never even move.



"Practice like you want to play in the game"
 
Posts: 14998 | Registered: September 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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SNS3GUPPY

We have seen corruption recently as the reporting on corona virus for federal money.

That being said, I have no hard proof its happening on the wild fire level. Could it be possible?

I enjoy your insight, so until I have hard proof otherwise I will defer to you. BUT. These are unprecedented times where states are hurting for .gov money due to nuking their economies. Is it possible this is a money grab?......my cynical side says yes. I hope I'm wrong.

BTW. I have a vested interest as I lived in SoCal for almost 30 years and personally watched the Santa Anna Wind fires eradicate entire neighborhoods. Almost consuming my Grandfathers Avocado groves. Now in the the PNW I'm waiting for it every year to take my home.


___________________________________Sigforum - port in the fake news storm.____________Be kind to the Homeless. A lot of us are one bad decision away from there.
 
Posts: 658 | Registered: July 20, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Up till a couple of decades ago fire fighting was an actual thing. Other than hotshots and aerial firefighting little actual ground fire fighting takes place.


It's all ground firefighting.

Air attack is simply a tool available to the ground firefighter.

We don't fight fire from the air. We just assist those on the ground, who do.

That's why the tee shirt says "aerial ground fire support."

The two hand crews that recently deployed shelters with one crew that got burned over, weren't pilots. They were firefightes on the ground, where the action is.

quote:
Originally posted by highroundcount:

BTW. I have a vested interest as I lived in SoCal for almost 30 years and personally watched the Santa Anna Wind fires eradicate entire neighborhoods. Almost consuming my Grandfathers Avocado groves.


Were your grandfather's groves somewhere between thousand oaks and ventura? I've admired some really nice avocado groves in there.
 
Posts: 5157 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My moron governor makes it political again. Why is everything worse in liberal democrat run areas? Their policies lead to more problems which they blame on others. Why is everything so much worse in California, Oregon and Washington State? Other states have fires, hurricanes, tornados and they don't blame others.

quote:
Inslee: Washington battling 'climate fires' not wildfires


https://komonews.com/news/loca...-fires-not-wildfires


____________________________________________________

The butcher with the sharpest knife has the warmest heart.
 
Posts: 12519 | Location: Bottom of Lake Washington | Registered: March 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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We had to evacuate from our home in Beavercreek on Thursday and are staying with relatives.

Our house is still standing and I have security cameras in the house so I know it's still there and standing. Lots of livestock still out in the pastures and the smoke is incredibly thick, everyone has sore throats from the air. The air quality index is slightly over 500.

Some of the nearby towns have had their evacuation levels reduced and I am hoping to get back tomorrow. We may continue to stay with relatives because the air quality is so much better.

Lots of rumors of Antifa roaming the countryside stashing gas trying to start fires. Also reports of people setting up checkpoints and stopping cars on the roads. I fear that some poor sap going to get killed simply for trying to get to his house.

We're safe and sound and sending thoughts and prayers to those people who have lost their homes and loved ones. 2020 is turning into one big bitch of a year.
 
Posts: 228 | Location: Oregon | Registered: May 22, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Green grass and
high tides
Picture of old rugged cross
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It's all ground firefighting.

Air attack is simply a tool available to the ground firefighter.

We don't fight fire from the air. We just assist those on the ground, who do.



I guess we are talking about two different worlds sns.



The wild fires in the NW and in interior NW are most fought with helo's and dip buckets. Virtually no ground crews. The ground crew's stand around their rigs as close to the fires as they can drive to and just watch the show or take naps back at the mega camp.

Not all of these fire are burning into urban or residential interface area's. When they do then the ground crews get in and try to direct fire away from structures. By this time it is virtually to late to do much good. It is an uncontrollable firestorm at that point.


Marc1911 wish you and your friends and neighbors well. The coming weather change hopefully will be enough to turn the tide.

This is off the topic that was being discussed of the feds wanting to let these fires get to the point of being a significant incident. At that point resources can be requested and they become a real deal. Then the money pours in and the big show starts and can last for months.



"Practice like you want to play in the game"
 
Posts: 14998 | Registered: September 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by radioman:
apparently there is a second video. Different encounter. Deputy talking to people who are guarding against looters. Which, to be honest, if these people were not there, then more looting would occur. just sayin.




Link to original video: https://youtu.be/_Vdxl_7xhAI


I heard that the deputy in this video may have been put on leave due to his references to Antifa.

I listened to the whole clip, such as it is. There are parts I can't hear clearly, like ~1:20, "Throw a fucking knife in their hand." I can't tell if he's disclaiming it as hypothetical bad advice, but if he's giving it as advice, that would be decidedly bad advice.

Other than that, I can't hear anything that would be justification for putting this deputy on leave. His references to antifa are not direct, he is quoting a hypothetical justification and pointing out how presuming that someone is "antifa" isn't an adequate justification for extra-judicial action.

I am a criminal defense attorney who works in the jurisdiction where this deputy does. I don't personally know the DA (John S Foote), but I have regular dealings with deputy district attorneys in this agency (Clackamas County District Attorney). Some of them are quite mechanical in their decisions to charge--if they think they can get you, they will. They will NOT see you as a good guy defending your property in a time of civil or natural disturbance. If they think they can prove the elements, they will narrow the scope down to the minute or seconds needed to prove the case against you. Your goodwill, sacrifice, intent to protect, what you did immediately before, or after, none of that will matter in their decision to charge you. If they think you broke the law, you will get charged--there is nothing to put on the other side of the scale to balance your guilt out prior to issuing the information or indictment (i.e you are not presumed innocent till after you are charged).

With few exceptions, the deputy's advice is sound as is his understanding of how the DA works and his articulations on when it's ok to use force. Where there are exceptions, it boils down to oversimplification. But he is not a lawyer, and likely the people he is talking to are not lawyers.

The one gentleman who keeps throwing questions at the deputy seems to want some sort of bright line test that can be applied in any situation, but the tests in this area of the law are rarely bright lines. The most important thing is being able to have a reasonable justification and being able to articulate that justification. And that's what this deputy is trying to get across. I hope they listened.
 
Posts: 17714 | Registered: August 12, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by old rugged cross:

The wild fires in the NW and in interior NW are most fought with helo's and dip buckets. Virtually no ground crews. The ground crew's stand around their rigs as close to the fires as they can drive to and just watch the show or take naps back at the mega camp.

Not all of these fire are burning into urban or residential interface area's. When they do then the ground crews get in and try to direct fire away from structures. By this time it is virtually to late to do much good. It is an uncontrollable firestorm at that point.



Interesting. Having spent a lot of years fighting fire in Oregon and Washington (and Idaho, Utah, Nevada, California, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, Minnesota, Florida...), I've never found that to be the case, but then my experience was limited to working with the crews in the field, and not watching it from a distance...so perhaps my judgement is clouded after all.

You mentioned crews standing around their "rigs," but most fire crews are not engine crews. Certainly there are engine crews, but they're one part of the show. It sounds like you're familiar with fire camps, but not with those who are spiked out on the fire; camps are where incident command structures are set up, and where rehab takes place for crews rotating off the line, but not where the firefighters stay when working a fire. They stay on the fire line.

Most crews don't have the benefit of an engine or hose lays to get to the fire line. Over the years I've worked very closely with hand crews, engine crews, hot shots, smoke jumpers, helittack crews, and many others from dozer operators to water tenders, to say nothing of state, county, and local fire crews and departments, including volunteer departments. Laziness and a lax attitude are not something I've ever seen as a standard among any of them, and when it does occur, is not well tolerated among the ranks.

Public perception is another matter. I've recounted getting up in a hotel, surrounded by evacuees who became an angry mob, blaming me for their homes...when firefighters were dying to protect them on that fire. Literally. What the public perceives is very often, most often, distant from the truth. There are wild ideas: why can't yo put it out? (It's a wildfire). Why can't you darken the skies with an aluminum air force and douse it? (Seriously? No). Why aren't you out there 24/7? (Exhaustion is a thing, and safety applies to firefighters, too). Why don't you just put retardant around it and end it? (Firefighting takes place on the ground, and fire eats through and jumps retardant; the red stuff is there to slow the fire long enough for ground troops to get to it). It doesn't look like they're working very hard. (Yeah...try it).

A lot of folks like to go hiking. Take a stroll in nature, really get the blood pumping, enjoy nature, get a workout. Go home, take a load off, crack a beer, watch TV. The fire crews go for that hike, only wearing 60-75 lbs of gear, carrying chain saws and gas cans and hand tools, hike into a forest fire, off trails and far from roads, in the dark, in places where everyone else is evacuated, and then start their work day, cutting line by digging for miles with a hand tool in rocky dirt, scratching fire line which may burn through...hiking, hiking, hiking. Clothing turns dirty white from the salt and sweat. Snake bites, rock falls, bee stings, lightning strikes, and the ever-present possibility of a burn-over are part of the office environment.

They take turns resting on the fireline, called "spiking out," meaning that they don't leave. They work, then take shifts sleeping or getting "rehab," and know that meals are MRE's, water dropped in or what they brought, and if the fire changes radically, they may be on their own. They carry fire shelters to deploy if they can't outhike the fire, if they're cut off. They pay isn't great; it's better if there's overtime and spiking out helps. There are no his and hers restrooms. No fifteen minute breaks or water coolers. The smoke jumpers who jumped in will be hiking back out. Sometimes for many miles. Sometimes not. This workday will last for six months, no idea when the work day begins or ends...just until it's over. And for the vast majority of those on the fireline, nobody will ever see what they do, and in most cases, know they're out there.

But they are. Even in Oregon and Washington.
 
Posts: 5157 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Green grass and
high tides
Picture of old rugged cross
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sns, you are right in the sense that the crews by in large when brought into a fire at the right time and allowed to go in and actually fight the fires do an amazing job. They are not the slackers.
My contribution in this thread is not really about them. Although I have been witness to private crews (green cardless) no doubt who acted like they were lazy and could give a shit about being there brought in to fight fires from thousands of miles away. And mostly just sat around and did little fire fighting. These fires are all about bringing resources in. Not about actually using them to fight the fire.


It is about the lack of desire to put these fires out by command central before they get to a level where now they got a good one going and lets set this thing up and make it the real deal. Yes it does happen. Every year. And has for going on a couple decades. Spending millions of dollars of tax payer money on a big fire is a boon for everyone except those footing the bill. I am out.



"Practice like you want to play in the game"
 
Posts: 14998 | Registered: September 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Oregon Man Arrested For Starting 7 Fires; Police Recover Molotov Cocktail

https://www.zerohedge.com/poli...ver-molotov-cocktail

Amid windy and worsening conditions at least 35 have died from the spate of West Coast fires which many thousands of firefighters are still busy battling. And there are still dozens of missing persons who were in the vicinity of the blazes.

Meanwhile the mainstream media is busy issuing headlines like this instead of actually trying to get to the bottom of what's behind the seeming simultaneous explosion of fires: "Oregon Officials Warn False Antifa Rumors Waste Precious Resources For Fires," writes NPR.

And now local Portland media is reporting that a 45-year old man has been arrested for starting at least seven brush fires near a major highway: "A man arrested Sunday afternoon for allegedly starting a small brush fire along Interstate 205 was arrested again hours after he was released from jail after he allegedly started six more small fires," according to a Portland Police statement.

So a single individual responsible for no less than seven brush fires - six of which he reportedly started after already being arrested and released... but somehow the media is demanding that the public consider it inconceivable that Antifa could be engaged in a campaign of arson in many of these fires.

"Nothing to see here!" apparently.

The suspect, identified as Domingo Lopez Jr., reportedly had a molotov with him upon the second arrest:

After officers and firefighters put out a small brush fire along I-205 around 4:30 p.m. Sunday, a witness flagged down officers about an hour later and said the man who started the fires was in a nearby tent. Police spoke to Lopez Jr., who told officer he lit the fire, police said. He was arrested and a plastic bottle with a wick was seized as evidence.


______________________________________________________________________________

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
– Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778
 
Posts: 8248 | Registered: January 17, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You have cow?
I lift cow!
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Just saw that. Gotta make an example of this guy. Domestic Terrorism.


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Posts: 6188 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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9/14 10:30 AM PDT Just west of Portland

Smoke remains strong here. Clear visibility is less than a 1/4 mile. Just looking about the window maybe 200-300 yards and even there it is fairly opaque.

Many days we have had smoke but no smell. Yesterday and today there is a heavy "camp fire" smell in the air.

I'm trying not to wake up my dog so I don't have to open the door to let him out.


Using 5 box fans with furnace filters to someone clean the in house air. I have a few MERV 13 filters, might add some filters into my supply stockpile that are rated to eliminate the smell of smoke.

Packing tape, moving boxes, fans, and furnace filters weren't on my be prepared stockpile.


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Posts: 962 | Location: portland, OR | Registered: October 29, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by old rugged cross:
The wild fires in the NW and in interior NW are most fought with helo's and dip buckets. Virtually no ground crews. The ground crew's stand around their rigs as close to the fires as they can drive to and just watch the show or take naps back at the mega camp.

I don't know what you mean by "ground crews," but I assume what you are describing are engine crews. You can bet your ass that hand crews, hotshots, and smokejumpers are busting their asses (and dying in the process) in the PNW right now. Like these four who recently died in Washington:
Tom L. Craven, 30.
Karen L. Fitzpatrick, 18.
Jessica L. Johnson, 19.
Devin A. Weaver, 21.

Not trying to be rude, but if you think wildlands fires are "most fought with helos and dip buckets," you simply don't understand wildland firefighting methods, technique, or objectives. Have you ever tried to put out a campfire with water? Think of how much water it took...do you really think a dip bucket would have any significant effect on a large wildfire?
 
Posts: 342 | Location: Utah | Registered: March 01, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Suspicious fires break out in Linn County; authorities seek ‘vehicle of interest’

https://www.oregonlive.com/pac...cle-of-interest.html

Authorities in Linn County are investigating a series of suspicious fires and are seeking someone in a pickup truck seen near one of them.

The Linn County Sheriff’s Office said responders were called early Monday to eight small fires east and west of Sweet Home, as well as outside Brownsville. The blazes occurred in a two-hour timeframe.

Authorities are looking for “a vehicle of interest” — a small white or silver 1990s Nissan pickup truck with a black canopy. The truck was seen in the area of one of the blazes.

Despite at least four arrests in suspected arson cases around the state in recent weeks, local police departments and the FBI have roundly rejected and debunked rumors of widespread arson in relation to the massive wildfires that have burned in Oregon over the last week.


______________________________________________________________________________

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
– Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778
 
Posts: 8248 | Registered: January 17, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Oregon Woman Catches Arsonist on her Property with Matches — Holds Him at Gunpoint Until Police Arrive (VIDEO)

https://www.thegatewaypundit.c...police-arrive-video/


______________________________________________________________________________

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
– Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778
 
Posts: 8248 | Registered: January 17, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ignored facts
still exist
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quote:
Originally posted by wcb6092:
Oregon Woman Catches Arsonist on her Property with Matches — Holds Him at Gunpoint Until Police Arrive (VIDEO)

https://www.thegatewaypundit.c...police-arrive-video/


Don't mess with the women of rural Oregon. These are not the same women as those in Portland or Eugene. Once you're east of the Sandy River, it's a whole different deal. Tonya Harding is nothing compared to what these women will do to you when they are pissed.


.
 
Posts: 8797 | Location: The Beaver State | Registered: February 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
half-genius,
half-wit
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quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
Just saw that. Gotta make an example of this guy. Domestic Terrorism.


SOS

Shoot on sight.

At least 35 people are dead, and many are missing.

At one timer here in UK, fire-raising HM Dockyards was capital offence.
 
Posts: 10195 | Location: UK, OR, ONT | Registered: July 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
half-genius,
half-wit
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quote:
Originally posted by SOTAR:
9/14 10:30 AM PDT Just west of Portland

Smoke remains strong here. Clear visibility is less than a 1/4 mile. Just looking about the window maybe 200-300 yards and even there it is fairly opaque.

Many days we have had smoke but no smell. Yesterday and today there is a heavy "camp fire" smell in the air.

I'm trying not to wake up my dog so I don't have to open the door to let him out.


Using 5 box fans with furnace filters to someone clean the in house air. I have a few MERV 13 filters, might add some filters into my supply stockpile that are rated to eliminate the smell of smoke.

Packing tape, moving boxes, fans, and furnace filters weren't on my be prepared stockpile.


We have some very dear friends in Tigard. L**** is confined to a motorised wheelchair, and will have real problems escaping a fire.

Next time we are over we'd love to meet up with you.
 
Posts: 10195 | Location: UK, OR, ONT | Registered: July 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by tacfoley:
Now, Gentlemen, before you blow me out of the water here for interfering, you have to remember that Mrs tac and I have a number of very dear friends in Oregon, some of whom are having a hard time, to say the least.

In that respect alone, I have an axe to grind.

See, here in UK we get YOUR news on many channels, and I've just watched your president stand right there and blame the citizens of Oregon and California for the present ongoing disaster, citing mismanagement of forestry.

I recall that the vast majority of these fires are on FEDERAL property.

WUXTREE WUXTREE!!!!! Mrs tac just came in now to tell me that she has just seen President Trump talking to the people from California,noting commenting that 'it'll get cooler'. 'Not according to the scientists', responded the dismayed Californian people. 'Well, scientists don't know everything', said your president.

I'm aghast, Sirs and Madams.


President Trump isn't blaming the citizens, he's exposing the various state administrations for their 40+ years of forestry mismanagement. If by proxy you want to associate this mismanagement to the citizens because they were the ones who kept electing politicians who listened to The Sierra Club over forestry professionals, if the shoe fits...

Regarding President Trump's comment about scientists - examine the "science" of the Whuhan virus. How many times have so many scientists that have been presented in various news media been been wrong not only in their predictions (especially that guy from the UK who had an affair while under quarantine), but also in the protective measures that other scientists have debunked as being useless? On masks alone, how many were against them before they were for them?

More specifically to the point of science and "climate change", wasn't there a scandal a few years ago regarding emails between so-called climate change scientists someplace in Greenwhich, England, where they were exposed for manipulating data and lying in order to make the results fit their agenda?

From what I understand of European reporting on American news, especially politics, it's along the same lines and bias as CNN, MSNBC, and the other mass media controlled by America-hating Socialists/Progressives/etc. I don't know your politics but if you're open-minded enough to do so, and if you can get their broadcasts, I recommend Rush Limbaugh, Tucker Carlson, and One America News Network. There are others, but I've found those three to be accurate and rarely wrong.

Edit to Add:

As far as the fires being mostly on Federal land - sure Federal regulations need to be looked at and, if necessary, changed. My understanding, though, is that when the Feds want to do clearing, controlled burns, or other forestry management, the states start their lawsuit machines to stop or delay the efforts.

Additionally, most “Federal” land is only managed by the Federal government. It is not owned by the Federal government, per the Constitution. The states do have responsibility for the brush and lack of lightning rod protection which could be achieved with simple cheap mental towers with good grounding that would attract all such energy before it goes to the trees and brush.

Here's a good article on the subject:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/20...nd-wildfire-debacle/




 
Posts: 4339 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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