quote:

Originally posted by braillediver:

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Originally posted by Sig209:
Try making it in life without one.

This is what perpetuates the myth. I know more degreed failures because I work next to them.

I do really well with just a high school diploma and 6 years in the USN. But it's the individual not any cliche'.

This ^^^^^

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
Very few people I know work in the field that their undergraduate degree is in.

I am close. Finance is the common element in my various business interests.

My brother is a CPA. He was a history major. A college neighbor, an anthropology major, was a Navy and airline pilot.

I agree with the premise of the OP, though. The academic experience is not for everyone. In former times, earning that degree distinguished you from the vast multitudes, proof of skills and attributes, some of which many might have, of course.

Like other things, if everybody has one, there is no distinction, especially if the level of required performance is diluted to accommodate the multitude and take their money. It is another instance of Gresham’s Law.

My undergraduate degree and specialization mirror my graduate degree and specialization. Molecular Biology, Molecular Genetics, and Microbiology.

I have worked in Molecular Immunology for over 20 years and this has become true specialization due to working in it all the time. It fits very well with my work in Vaccine and Biologics Research and Clinical Trials testing. Myself and my colleagues all have graduate level degrees for the most part.

Degrees in the STEM fields are critical for the knowledge to advance invention and development in those areas. The focus of the degree is just as important as getting a degree in many cases.

Just my $0.02,

Mike (Molecular Biologist/Immunologist)

It's impossible to generalize here because there are just too many exceptions. I have a masters degree in engineering, work as an engineering supervisor, and do just fine. My degree has been far from worthless. However, my older brother makes at least twice what I do with only a high school diploma. There are a lot of ways to make money out there if you are willing to work harder than the other guy.

What I've seen in my field of geotechnical engineering is a push towards masters degrees being highly desirable. What used to be a rare degree is now commonplace. I would say that more than half of my peers or direct reports either have a M.S. or are pursuing one. The B.S. has been devalued, though still far from worthless.

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Originally posted by Black92LX:

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To think that someones degree is from an online college is of lesser value than a physical campus is silly. Reminds me of the guy who says letters are the only way to communicate not text messages. You are discounting it due to the medium at which it is obtained yet state colleges everywhere now offer online classes. If a student at xyz university only took online classes would you discount that degree? Or is it because it is a physical college? Both are accredited by the same education board and I can tell you unless the degree is something that is very specialized, they are all worthless.

Online classes have their place but a sole full blown degree.
Where nothing is done but in front of the computer, no personal interaction, no presentations, no practical application, all open book comprehension, no open dialog.

Yup, pretty much worthless. Sure some classes can be done online but there is no way a degree should be fully obtained online. There are so many more parts to the education then regurgitating facts.

Again, online classes and degrees have their place but if I was hiring and you come to me with nothing more than a piece of paper from an online entity, nope.

Well online classes actually DO have interaction through forums/videos, and skype sessions. Data actually suggests otherwise that interaction is more distracting, see the quote below.

Anyways, I am fascinated by your line in the sand especially when about 95% of the courses I attended were completely worthless and did not even apply to the real world or my major. Schools force you to take 120 hours with only 30 being in your Major... So 30 hours suddenly makes one an expert(or more reliable then someone with equivalent years in experience or online degree) when other things like PE, foreign language, several arts classes, astronomy etc... that have nothing to do with the skillset you're trying to achieve. Got it.

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However, as time has passed, some research has begun to question the value of interaction, suggesting that there could be too much interaction required in a course. Summarizing 2007 findings by Arbaugh and Rau, the authors report, “learner-instructor interaction had the strongest correlation with perceived learning; learner-learner interaction actually had a negative correlation with delivery medium satisfaction. The more participants a learner had to pay attention to, the less satisfaction they had with the learning environment.”

It is possible, in other words, that requiring students to read and respond to posts and conversations from many different classmates may actually cause a good deal of frustration and dissatisfaction with the course experience. This study, which looked at online MBA courses, suggests that there may be an optimum level of interaction for graduate-level courses, and that more is not always better.

Excerpted from “Is There Too Much Interaction in Your Courses?” Distance Education Report, 14.7 (2010): 1,2. You can read the complete article by downloaded our free report Designing Online Courses: Models for Improvement. Download report »

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Very few people I know work in the field that their undergraduate degree is in.

I am close. <snip>

The same with me. I obtained an electrical engineering degree from a science & engineering college, but most of my career was digital logic design, which didn't require much of the knowledge I obtained from my formal education. Still, it's unlikely that I'd have been able to enter that lucratively field without that BSEE.

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Originally posted by Deqlyn:
Data actually suggests otherwise that interaction is more distracting, see the quote below.

Absolutely correct, especially for those who want to learn and master a subject, and not merely prey on the work and ideas of others in a group. This is being recognized more and more not only (or perhaps to a lesser extent) in colleges, but also in lower education and the workplace. This is something I’ve often discussed with a former teacher and we both agree. Interactions can be useful if they are self-generated among like-minded students. In my experience, however, to be dragooned into “cooperating” with random strangers is literally worse than useless.

All this was discussed at some length by Susan Cain in her book Quiet: Quiet The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking (and the book is not just about introverts).

So wait, at 41yrs old, am I wasting my time and my money on trying to obtain an online BSME degree before I hit 50?

Education is never worthless. But it is not an automatic money machine either.

My father graduated from Wharton and ran a gas station pretty much his whole life. Many would look at that and claim it was a waste of time to go to Wharton just to run a gas station, yet, he ran a very successful gas station using the "tools" from this education.

Mike Rowe addressed this a while back, pointing out the lack of vocational/technical training in high schools these days. It seems that learning a trade which can support you in this life is now looked down upon. I suppose it has somethng to do with slave masters or some such nonsense.

This will end up hurting a lot of people, who end up getting a useless degree from a school that wouldn't allow them to fail unless they stopped paying tuition, instead of learning to be a machinist or a technician of some sort.

Yeah, we can't have this blue collar stuff. Gotta go to kollage and get a degree that doesn't help you one damn bit.

Have you seen those videos of someone taking a camera onto an American college campus and asking basic questions, such as who won the American Civil War? Do you hear these dunces? Fucking stupid, these people are, with their worthless diplomas.

IMO, they come out of kollage these days even more ignorant than when they started.

It’s easy to construct and prop up straw men in discussions like this: “Oh, I guess I could have become as good a surgeon by studying under the Fred the barber down on Second Street as by going to college and medical school for 16 years; maybe you should talk to Fred about your brain tumor and get a shave at the same time.”

Is all higher formal education worthless? Of course not.
Is some higher education worthless? Without a scintilla of doubt, and that’s becoming more commonly true all the time.

And one measure of an educated person is the ability to tell the difference, understand the bases for the differences, and to be able to discuss the matter without exaggeration and deliberate misrepresentation.

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Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

To think that someones degree is from an online college is of lesser value than a physical campus is silly. Reminds me of the guy who says letters are the only way to communicate not text messages. You are discounting it due to the medium at which it is obtained yet state colleges everywhere now offer online classes. If a student at xyz university only took online classes would you discount that degree? Or is it because it is a physical college? Both are accredited by the same education board and I can tell you unless the degree is something that is very specialized, they are all worthless.

Online classes have their place but a sole full blown degree.
Where nothing is done but in front of the computer, no personal interaction, no presentations, no practical application, all open book comprehension, no open dialog.

Yup, pretty much worthless. Sure some classes can be done online but there is no way a degree should be fully obtained online. There are so many more parts to the education then regurgitating facts.

Again, online classes and degrees have their place but if I was hiring and you come to me with nothing more than a piece of paper from an online entity, nope.

Many online classes are not as you imagine, with group discussions and full classroom lectures with interaction and dialogue with Skype-like chats and control panels, and group projects, and many tests are structured (timing and question-wise, which is the same as how open book tests often work in person) such that having the book there isn't going to help enough to matter, and so on.

When done properly, fully utilizing modern technology, it's really not meaningfully different from being there in person, and - just about everyone I know who has done both kinds will tell you that online classes, when offered by a regularly accredited brick and mortar institution, are actually *more* difficult than the in person classess, by design, to mitigate the very concerns you have, and - they're also usually more expensive per credit hour. No one is getting a shortcut easy degree online, not from real/regular Universities.

If it were as you seem to think they are, I'd probably agree, but I believe your perception is mistaken and not at all representative of the reality in most cases, fwiw.

I don't have an online degree, myself, but I know 30 or so career professionals who either finished their BS or got a second one or got a graduate degree that way, and they and their experiences do not match what you're thinking is the case.

Now, if some International Technical College of the Solomon Islands (or for that matter one in, say, Hollywood, Florida or Laurel, Mississippi or Needles, California) is offering BS degrees in World Finance, International Banking, and Basketweaving in 3yrs... that's different.

^^^ DONT BE DISSING MY DEGREE IN BASKETWEAVING, Also have a minor in underwater basketweaving and funology.

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Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Of course we’ll get the onslaught of blue collars telling us how great they have it, until they hit mid-40s and they are physically broken and wish they could make money in other ways. Especially when people with quality degrees and experience make more in a day when they make in a week.

Very good point. Eventually - even in the blue collar fields - a USEFUL degree will be beneficial at some point.

But I agree with others that a larger problem is that the quality of instruction seems to have fallen.

---------------------------------

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Originally posted by parabellum:

IMO, they come out of kollage these days even more ignorant than when they started.

My knowledge came from High School/College/Law School, my education came from working in a gas station from about the age of 7.

The BA is now the equivalent of the modern High School diploma.

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Originally posted by ChuckWall:
The BA is now the equivalent of the modern High School diploma.

I think you must mean what a high school diploma used to be--the modern version isn't worth spit in many cases.

Regarding degrees, there are worthwhile ones and useless ones, and it's not just due to the subject matter--some of it is related to the quality of instruction and the effort required to earn it. Almost any degree that requires a lot of work by the student will have a few real applications that matter (but maybe not as many as there are such degree holders)--I suppose even one in Basketweaving.

I graduated in 1960 with a B. S. in Chemical Engineering and immediately was commissioned a 2LT in USAF, which made me a Radar Maintenance Officer (with no training!), and I served in related occupations in USAF for 15 years. During that time they sent me to get a M. S. in Industrial Engineering, which they then didn't make much use of, either. After 15 years as an officer (Captain) I was tossed out (didn't get promoted) and enlisted as a COBOL computer programmer--something that any GOOD high school student could learn, and many in USAF did) and I finished my 20 years doing that, followed by 26 more years in civilian life.

So--were my degrees worthwhile or useless? I never worked in either field, and found few opportunities to employ the specific knowledge imparted in my classes. Yet I did learn how to analyze problems, apply logic, and formulate solutions--all elements that were very useful in my later occupations.

In the end it is the dedication and work effort put into earning a degree that has the greatest effect, not the specific subject matter. If the lessons teach material useful in one's job it is best, of course, but most of what one needs to know on any job is learned in situ, not in the classroom.

flashguy

Education and health care are both heavily subsidized by government in an effort to reach everyone.
Subsidies drive up the cost... and arguably lower the quality.

You can have 2 of 3:
Quality, affordability, universality. You can't have all 3.

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Originally posted by Chris42:

My advice to the youth of today? 4 years active duty in the service then use the GI Bill to pay for college. The military time will give more time for maturing, time away from home, time to travel (I went USN) and time to see what kind of degree might be useful.
.

To add on. What I told my students was to select a military school that gave them a job after the military. To plan on doing one tour, then getting out. If you wanted to stay in, do so. While on active duty take college classes and get an associates degree. ACE can convert your military training into college credits. Tuition assistance pays for your college credits. Save your money. When you get out you will easily have the core credits for a degree and the self discipline to finish college.

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Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

To think that someones degree is from an online college is of lesser value than a physical campus is silly. Reminds me of the guy who says letters are the only way to communicate not text messages. You are discounting it due to the medium at which it is obtained yet state colleges everywhere now offer online classes. If a student at xyz university only took online classes would you discount that degree? Or is it because it is a physical college? Both are accredited by the same education board and I can tell you unless the degree is something that is very specialized, they are all worthless.

Online classes have their place but a sole full blown degree.
Where nothing is done but in front of the computer, no personal interaction, no presentations, no practical application, all open book comprehension, no open dialog.

Yup, pretty much worthless. Sure some classes can be done online but there is no way a degree should be fully obtained online. There are so many more parts to the education then regurgitating facts.

Again, online classes and degrees have their place but if I was hiring and you come to me with nothing more than a piece of paper from an online entity, nope.

You've clearly never taken a real college class online. Everything you mention does occur in reputable online courses. Don't you realize the internet makes two way conversations possible? You can give presentations, participate in debates, take proctored tests without the benefit of books or notes, and do it all online.

You might want to do a little research before you make such bold statements.

I think Black may be referring to those fly by night "schools" that only offer online classes.

There are plenty of traditional brick and mortar schools these days which offer online programs in addition to their in person programs. The degrees both say the same thing. One school that comes to mind is the University of North Carolina MBA program. It's highly rated.