SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  The Lounge    Argument between Cessna Pilot and Vegas ATC
Page 1 2 3 4 5 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Argument between Cessna Pilot and Vegas ATC Login/Join 
Eschew Obfuscation
posted
Something tells me the FAA's going to give this guy a lengthy "time out". Big Grin



link: https://youtu.be/mUSUXnr4dSo


_____________________________________________________________________
“Civilization is not inherited; it has to be learned and earned by each generation anew; if the transmission should be interrupted for one century, civilization would die, and we should be savages again." - Will Durant
 
Posts: 6356 | Location: Chicago, IL | Registered: December 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Joie de vivre
Picture of sig229-SAS
posted Hide Post
I'll look forward to the comments from the flyers among the SF members !!
 
Posts: 3848 | Location: 1,960' up in Murphy, NC | Registered: January 29, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Crusty old
curmudgeon
Picture of Jimbo54
posted Hide Post
I'm not a pilot and don't know what a Bravo line is. Can someone explain please.

Jim


________________________

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll have to be a horrible warning" -Catherine Aird
 
Posts: 9791 | Location: The right side of Washington State | Registered: September 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Certified Plane Pusher
Picture of Phantom229
posted Hide Post
He french fried when he should have pizza'd. He's going to have a bad time.



Situation awareness is defined as a continuous extraction of environmental information, integration of this information with previous knowledge to form a coherent mental picture in directing further perception and anticipating future events. Simply put, situational awareness mean knowing what is going on around you.
 
Posts: 7895 | Location: Around Lake Tapps, Wa | Registered: September 29, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Certified Plane Pusher
Picture of Phantom229
posted Hide Post
What really got me was he only told his side of the story to the tower, blaming the tracon. Believe me when I say we find out the real story, really quick.



Situation awareness is defined as a continuous extraction of environmental information, integration of this information with previous knowledge to form a coherent mental picture in directing further perception and anticipating future events. Simply put, situational awareness mean knowing what is going on around you.
 
Posts: 7895 | Location: Around Lake Tapps, Wa | Registered: September 29, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Eschew Obfuscation
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo54:
I'm not a pilot and don't know what a Bravo line is. Can someone explain please.

Jim

I'm not a pilot and had to google it. Bravo is the term for the airspace around major airports. Think of it as an inverted wedding cake - smaller on the bottom and expanding outward on each level.

Apparently, it is a major taboo to enter this space without authorization. It's also a major taboo to refuse to leave when directed by air traffic control.


_____________________________________________________________________
“Civilization is not inherited; it has to be learned and earned by each generation anew; if the transmission should be interrupted for one century, civilization would die, and we should be savages again." - Will Durant
 
Posts: 6356 | Location: Chicago, IL | Registered: December 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I'd rather have luck
than skill any day
Picture of mjlennon
posted Hide Post
Would seem he needs more than some remedial training; an attitude adjustment is in order...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mjlennon,
 
Posts: 1816 | Location: Fayetteville, Georgia | Registered: December 08, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted Hide Post
Sounds like he requested clearance, did not receive it (for whatever reason), proceeded as if he had--by default, then refused to get out of the way when explicitly told to do so.

I'm no pilot, but I imagine the FAA takes a dim view of such behaviour.



"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
 
Posts: 25980 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peripheral Visionary
Picture of tigereye313
posted Hide Post
Yep, he gon have some trouble.




 
Posts: 11344 | Location: Texas | Registered: January 29, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nosce te ipsum
Picture of Woodman
posted Hide Post
Benny's enchiladas at the Calvada Meadows Airport Fly-In claim another victim?
 
Posts: 8759 | Registered: March 24, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Savor the limelight
posted Hide Post
The plane is owned by Wife Approved LLC. The wife married a jackass.
 
Posts: 10784 | Location: SWFL | Registered: October 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of PowerSurge
posted Hide Post
I don’t know. Maybe Woodman is right and he had a case of the runnin’ shits. Or flyin’ shits in this instance.


———————————————
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 14:1
 
Posts: 3955 | Location: Northeast Georgia | Registered: November 18, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo54:
I'm not a pilot and don't know what a Bravo line is. Can someone explain please.

Jim


Class B, or "Class Bravo" airspace surrounds about 30 major cities; it's busy airspace in which one cannot fly without certain requirements, including a specific clearance to enter.

Less busy locations, Class C, only require two-way communication to enter, but not so for Class B. In this case, the pilot contacted Las Vegas Approach Control, and did establish two way communications (defined by calling, and receiving an answer that includes the aircraft callsign), but never received a clearance.

Such a case will result in an FAA investigation, and in this case certificate action. That means the FAA takes action against the pilot's certificate. The FAA looks closely at an "attitude of compliance," and whether the incident created a safety hazard, and was intentional.

In this case, the pilot clearly states it was intentional, clearly refuses to comply, and clearly knows he violated Class B airspace. Further, he created a potential safety hazard by passing relatively close to traffic inbound to McCarran airport, including airline traffic, operating under instrument flight rules.

At a minimum, he's looking at violations of 14 CFR 91.13 (careless and reckless operation); potentially 91.111 (operations near other aircraft); 91.123 (compliance with ATC clearances and instructions); and 91.131 (operations in Class B airspace). There may be more.

Most likely he's looking at a 90 day suspension of his pilot certificate at a minimum, but he may be getting a "709 ride," as well. That's a grounding until passing a competency flight check by the FAA. In essence, he'd have to re-test for his pilot certificate. Any certificate action becomes a matter of permanent record. He sounds like a whiny private pilot, but if he's flying commercially, it will hurt his career for the rest of his life, and it will raise his insurance requirements as well. Given today's climate, if he intends to fly for a living, he may have just cancelled a future career.
 
Posts: 6650 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Keystoner
posted Hide Post
It sounded like the asshole got apologized to at the end of the video.



Year V
 
Posts: 2609 | Registered: November 05, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
posted Hide Post
udas in the stew field
 
Posts: 107177 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Keystoner:
It sounded like the asshole got apologized to at the end of the video.


He was dealing with tower, and what's given is a short snippet. What's not given completely is that he's just been provided a phone number. When a pilot is given a phone number to call after landing, he's in trouble. In this case, ATC wants a call. At the end of the video, he's talking to Henderson tower, which if I recall, is a private tower. They're not approach control, so they're responding to the pilot's comments directly to them. They're being diplomatic. They're also avoiding excess radio chatter.

When the pilot calls, if he chooses to call, his conversation will be recorded, and that recording will also be used in enforcement proceedings, and any appeals he makes after the FAA has taken action.

The FAA works through administrative law, rather than civil or criminal law. In FAA world, you are guilty until proven innocent; the FAA will take action and then he can appeal it. He can submit comments prior, but the only purpose of those comments is evidence to be used against him, and given that no evidence is needed to proceed, it's evidence to be used against him after his "conviction." That means that anything he says will be used against him when he appeals the FAA's decision to take certificate action.

Given his attitude, his goose is likely fried.
 
Posts: 6650 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I am a leaf
on the wind...
posted Hide Post
I wish we could hear that phone call. SNS is right, we will only get the polite, professional ATC on the tape. That's their job, to be professional in the face of chaos. Once he's on the phone call, that's with an angry supervisor, and that voice is decidedly unpleasant, I've made a couple of those calls myself. They are not fun, and mine were all accidental. After apologizing and explaining what went wrong ATC is usually understanding(once they review the recorded conversation over the radio).

This guy I imagine got his ass chewed on the phone call. There WILL be an investigation based only on his tone over the radio. I'm sure this will result in a 90 day time out at the very least.


_____________________________________
"We must not allow a mine shaft gap."
 
Posts: 2113 | Location: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: August 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Crusty old
curmudgeon
Picture of Jimbo54
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo54:
I'm not a pilot and don't know what a Bravo line is. Can someone explain please.

Jim


Class B, or "Class Bravo" airspace surrounds about 30 major cities; it's busy airspace in which one cannot fly without certain requirements, including a specific clearance to enter.

Less busy locations, Class C, only require two-way communication to enter, but not so for Class B. In this case, the pilot contacted Las Vegas Approach Control, and did establish two way communications (defined by calling, and receiving an answer that includes the aircraft callsign), but never received a clearance.

Such a case will result in an FAA investigation, and in this case certificate action. That means the FAA takes action against the pilot's certificate. The FAA looks closely at an "attitude of compliance," and whether the incident created a safety hazard, and was intentional.

In this case, the pilot clearly states it was intentional, clearly refuses to comply, and clearly knows he violated Class B airspace. Further, he created a potential safety hazard by passing relatively close to traffic inbound to McCarran airport, including airline traffic, operating under instrument flight rules.

At a minimum, he's looking at violations of 14 CFR 91.13 (careless and reckless operation); potentially 91.111 (operations near other aircraft); 91.123 (compliance with ATC clearances and instructions); and 91.131 (operations in Class B airspace). There may be more.

Most likely he's looking at a 90 day suspension of his pilot certificate at a minimum, but he may be getting a "709 ride," as well. That's a grounding until passing a competency flight check by the FAA. In essence, he'd have to re-test for his pilot certificate. Any certificate action becomes a matter of permanent record. He sounds like a whiny private pilot, but if he's flying commercially, it will hurt his career for the rest of his life, and it will raise his insurance requirements as well. Given today's climate, if he intends to fly for a living, he may have just cancelled a future career.


Thanks, it was what I suspected but not known. What an idiot for cooking his own goose.

Jim


________________________

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll have to be a horrible warning" -Catherine Aird
 
Posts: 9791 | Location: The right side of Washington State | Registered: September 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
All the time
Picture of Gear.Up
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
udas in the stew field


Been a while since I've seen that reference here. Big Grin
 
Posts: 2320 | Location: East TN | Registered: July 28, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Certified Plane Pusher
Picture of Phantom229
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:

When the pilot calls, if he chooses to call, his conversation will be recorded, and that recording will also be used in enforcement proceedings, and any appeals he makes after the FAA has taken action.

The FAA works through administrative law, rather than civil or criminal law. In FAA world, you are guilty until proven innocent; the FAA will take action and then he can appeal it. He can submit comments prior, but the only purpose of those comments is evidence to be used against him, and given that no evidence is needed to proceed, it's evidence to be used against him after his "conviction." That means that anything he says will be used against him when he appeals the FAA's decision to take certificate action.
If given a phone number, it is in your best interest to call because they will find you. If they have to go find you, let's just say it's in your best interest to call.

If you are given a number, it's because we know what you did. The Brasher statement isn't something the FAA takes lightly. if you hear "NXXX, possible pilot deviation, advise you contact (FACILITY) at XXX-XXX-XXXX", you've screwed up. The vast majority of the time, someone screws up, gets Brashered, calls the tower, says sorry and that they won't do it again, then all is well. Sometimes you get an asshole who wants to push their luck, welcome to FSDO.

Only 1 time I've had to issue it because the TRACON asked me to and they were in the wrong. I had to apologize, which I hate to do if someone else screwed up.



Situation awareness is defined as a continuous extraction of environmental information, integration of this information with previous knowledge to form a coherent mental picture in directing further perception and anticipating future events. Simply put, situational awareness mean knowing what is going on around you.
 
Posts: 7895 | Location: Around Lake Tapps, Wa | Registered: September 29, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4 5  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  The Lounge    Argument between Cessna Pilot and Vegas ATC

© SIGforum 2024