R 161950Z Dec 08
UNCLASSIFIED//
ALMAR 052/08
MSGID/GENADMIN/CMC WASHINGTON DC CMC//
SUBJ/CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS//
REF/A/DESCOC/CMC WASHINGTON DC/05MAY2003//
AMPN/REF A IS MCO P5060.20, MARINE CORPS DRILL AND CEREMONIES MANUAL.
//
GENTEXT/REMARKS/
1. THIS ALMAR REINFORCES THE IMPORTANCE OF OUR
CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS AND AMPLIFIES THE PROVISIONS OF THE REFERENCE
FOR RENDERING SALUTES AND HONORS TO THE NATIONAL FLAG; THE PROPER
CONDUCT OF THE MARINE CORPS BIRTHDAY CAKE CUTTING CEREMONY; AND THE
PLAYING OF THE MARINES' HYMN.
2. CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS PROVIDE A LINK TO THE PAST; THEY BOND
MARINES WHO HAVE GONE BEFORE WITH MARINES WHO WILL CARRY THE TORCH
THROUGH THE FUTURE. ANY LOSS OF TRADITION OR IMPROPER OBSERVATION
OF CUSTOM BLURS OUR IDENTITY AND WEAKENS US AS AN INSTITUTION.
THROUGH THE FAITHFUL ADHERENCE BY COMMANDERS AND EACH INDIVIDUAL
MARINE, WE PRESERVE OUR IDENTITY AND REPUTATION AS A UNIQUE AND
ELITE FIGHTING ORGANIZATION.
3. SALUTING. A RECENT CHANGE TO THE LAW HAS AUTHORIZED ACTIVE DUTY
AND RETIRED SERVICEMEMBERS TO SALUTE THE NATIONAL COLORS, WHETHER
COVERED OR UNCOVERED, INDOORS OR OUT. BY CUSTOM AND TRADITION,
MARINES DO NOT RENDER THE HAND SALUTE WHEN OUT OF UNIFORM OR WHEN
UNCOVERED. LET THERE BE NO CONFUSION; THAT HAS NOT CHANGED. DURING
THE PLAYING OF THE NATIONAL ANTHEM, OR THE RAISING, LOWERING, OR
PASSING OF THE NATIONAL FLAG, MARINES WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW NAVAL
TRADITIONS AND THE POLICY / PROCEDURES CONTAINED IN REFERENCE (A).
SPECIFICALLY, MARINES NOT IN UNIFORM WILL FACE THE FLAG, STAND AT
ATTENTION, AND PLACE THE RIGHT HAND OVER THE HEART. IF COVERED,
MARINES NOT IN UNIFORM WILL REMOVE THEIR HEADGEAR WITH THE RIGHT
HAND AND PLACE THEIR RIGHT HAND OVER THEIR HEART. WHEN THE FLAG IS
NOT PRESENT, MARINES WILL ACT IN THE SAME MANNER WHILE FACING IN THE
DIRECTION OF THE MUSIC. IN CASES SUCH AS INDOOR CEREMONIES, WHEN
MARINES ARE IN UNIFORM AND UNCOVERED, THEY WILL FACE THE FLAG, OR
THE DIRECTION OF THE MUSIC WHEN THE FLAG IS NOT PRESENT, AND STAND
AT ATTENTION.

They could have just said, "Keep doin' what you been doin'", but that would have gone against tradition.

I don't think there should be a law regarding how a civilian should salute a flag.

Isn't there enough laws already?

I think if you are in a position that requires military members to render a salute then you should be able to salute back. The purpose of this custom is to render MUTUAL respect for the position and esprit de corps. In essence I feel the POTUS should salute back as a sign of respect for the troops and acknowledgment that while he is in office he is one of them.

quote
2. CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS PROVIDE A LINK TO THE PAST; THEY BOND
MARINES WHO HAVE GONE BEFORE WITH MARINES WHO WILL CARRY THE TORCH
THROUGH THE FUTURE. ANY LOSS OF TRADITION OR IMPROPER OBSERVATION
OF CUSTOM BLURS OUR IDENTITY AND WEAKENS US AS AN INSTITUTION.
unquote

Substitute soldier, sailor or airman freely in place of marine as necessary.

If someone really cares about what they do and who they are...they learn to do it right.
Improper observation implies someone doesn't care. It isn't important enough to them to learn
the "rest of the story". Show respect to our forces by doing it right.

Hooorah Marine.

USN Retired.

quote
Most people just don't care. More importantly, it doesn't matter. unquote

I am fully aware of the apathy being shown and that is what this thread is about. To those who have signed the check putting their life on the line....it does matter....it matters a great deal. It matters more than most civilians can fathom.

quote:

that while he is in office he is one of them.

He may have been elected HMFIC...but he is NOT one of us. You gain admittance by signing the check.

quote:

Originally posted by darryl:
quote
Most people just don't care. More importantly, it doesn't matter. unquote

I am fully aware of the apathy being shown and that is what this thread is about. To those who have signed the check putting their life on the line....it does matter....it matters a great deal. It matters more than most civilians can fathom.

Note to civilians:
Not all military members or retired military members believe that just because we served we have some special patriotism that civilians can simply not understand. For myself, I'm a bit weary of the wearing your heart on your sleeve "unless you served, you'll never comprehend" nonsense.

I'm a retired AF officer. I was enlisted for 9 years and commissioned for 11 (technically, I still hold a commission, though in retired status). I considered it a privilege to serve my country and am proud of my time in uniform. That service however, gives me no special claim on how important a salute from the president is.

And......., I just don't give a damn if the president salutes nor do I care about his proficiency in doing so. He may have the sloppiest salute in the world, he is still the commander in chief. It's like worrying about the mice when we have elephants running around.

Actually, I think the general concensus said the current President had a pretty good salute.

Thanks, Hanno. When any person says others can't understand because they didn't do whatever, they have lost any chance to persuade me.

If we are going to start saluting everyone who has made a sacrifice for the good of society I think we should start with inner-city elementary school teachers, animal shelter workers and blood donors...school teachers don't get to shoot back.

This is nuts - going bonkers over the POTUS saluting is the equivalent of cops complaining because he has red and blue flashing lights on his car. I've never heard a cop complain because the President has red and blue flashing lights on his car. Cops complain about plenty of other stuff he does, but not that.

of sunshine
Picture of jhe888

Posted Nov 3, 9:58 PM Hide Post
Thanks, Hanno. When any person says others can't understand because they didn't do whatever, they have lost any chance to persuade me.


My point is that try as I might I cannot really understand what its like to have my arm blown off since I still have mine. Or I cannot tell a
mother what its like to give birth, since I haven't done that either. But evidently that's just my inability.

quote:

Originally posted by darryl:
My point is that try as I might I cannot really understand what its like to have my arm blown off since I still have mine. Or I cannot tell a
mother what its like to give birth, since I haven't done that either. But evidently that's just my inability.

My point is simple: I wore a uniform. So did Lee Harvey Oswald. I have no special claim on patriotism. Neither did he.

Iran moving towards having nukes, Obama dithering on Afghanistan, the economy in shambles with federal debt exploding and you're worried about O's salute?
Please.

Sendec,
I started this thread by quoting US Code...the law of the land. I didn't write the law. Like you, I have the ability to decide which law I'll follow and which law I won't. Which I like and which I don't. If I'm apathetic to minor laws, what confidence does that inspire in regards to more serious ones? How about a LEO who constantly ignores all speed laws? Do you have confidence in him to provide justice? Or will he pick and choose which law he will enforce today? Or a airline pilot falling asleep or using a laptop? Where do you draw the line?

It is my opinion that when someone breaks a law, any law, whether he gets caught or not, whether it is popular or not, dire consequences or not, he demeans and cheapens himself, the law, and everyone else.

YMMMV

quote:

Iran moving towards having nukes, Obama dithering on Afghanistan, the economy in shambles with federal debt exploding and you're worried about O's salute?
Please.

Actually, I'm ranting about the apathetic populace that have allowed all the above and more to become reality, simply because they didn't give a damn. O's salute falls in the same category as a child wearing a bat man cape.

No, it doesn't. He is the Commander in Chief and the leader of the free world, and that applies whether we are talking Obama, Reagan, Teddy Roosevelt or Millard Filmore.

And I don't believe that those sections of the US Code address per se infractions as crimes, so the point is largely moot.

I guess, buy your standards, if a Presidential motorcade passes through my county with lights flashing and sirens blaring, I should stop and cite all the USSS drivers for improper display of emergency equipment, as they are not in route to an emergency.

I guess I'm apathetic, I'm not going to do that.

It'd take about 45 seconds of cruising through Google Images to find a slew of pics of Presidents saluting the Marine at the foot of the stairs to Marine One. I'll bet the same applies to AF1, but the photogs seem to focus on the top-of-the stairs wave, unless it was Ford taking his tumble.

To sell short the patriotism of another on the basis that they have not served in the military is one of the most disgraceful things a service member can do. The beauty of a volunteer military is that those who choose to serve can, and those that choose not to serve don't have to, but we all get to savor the freedom that your service ensures. That is patriotism.

I guess this is a bit of thread drift, but it really irks me when people in the military claim a special privilege or degree of patriotism. You serve so that others do not have to, not to lord your contributions over another.

Don't forget what "serve" really means. It isn't about you, it is about the people you work for.

09:29 December 24th, 2008
To salute or not to salute, that’s Obama’s question

Posted by: David Alexander


Barack Obama went to a gym at a military base in Hawaii the other day and did something positively Reaganesque — he returned a Marine’s salute.

In so doing, he wandered directly into the middle of a thorny debate: Should U.S. presidents return military salutes or not?

Longstanding tradition requires members of the military to salute the president. The practice of presidents returning that salute is more recent — Ronald Reagan started it in 1981.

Reagan’s decision raised eyebrows at the time. Dwight Eisenhower, a former five-star general, did not return military salutes while president. Nor had other presidents.

John Kline, then Reagan’s military aide and now a Minnesota congressman, advised him that it went against military protocol for presidents to return salutes.

Kline said in a 2004 op-ed piece in The Hill that Reagan ultimately took up the issue with Gen. Robert Barrow, then commandant of the Marine Corps.

Barrow told Reagan that as commander in chief of the armed forces, he was entitled to offer a salute — or any sign of respect he wished — to anyone he wished, Kline wrote, adding he was glad for the change.

Every president since Reagan has followed that practice, even those with no military experience. President Bill Clinton’s saluting skills were roundly criticized after he took office, but the consensus was he eventually got better.

The debate over saluting has persisted, with some arguing against it for protocol reasons, others saying it represents an increasing militarization of the civilian presidency.

“The gesture is of course quite wrong: Such a salute has always required the wearing of a uniform,” author and historian John Lukacs wrote in The New York Times in 2003.

“But there is more to this than a decline in military manners,” he added. “There is something puerile in the Reagan (and now Bush) salute. It is the joyful gesture of someone who likes playing soldier. It also represents an exaggeration of the president’s military role.”

Garry Wills, the author and Northwestern University professor, echoed those remarks in the Times in 2007.

“The glorification of the president as a war leader is registered in numerous and substantial executive aggrandizements; but it is symbolized in other ways that, while small in themselves, dispose the citizenry to accept those aggrandizements,” he wrote.

“We are reminded, for instance, of the expanded commander in chief status every time a modern president gets off the White House helicopter and returns the salute of Marines.”


Sendec: quote And I don't believe that those sections of the US Code address per se infractions as crimes. unquote

As you will. As per motorcade...not addressed. Google Pictures...Show me one of President Eisenhower.

Audiostar: quote To sell short the patriotism of another on the basis that they have not served in the military is one of the most disgraceful things a service member can do. unquote

And where exactly did I claim that anyone was unpatriotic?

quote:

Since he is not commissioned by congress, he has no rank.

Untrue.

First, commissioned officers receive their commissions from the President, not Congress. High-ranking officers (BG and above IIRC) have their promotions approved by the Senate but the commission and promotion authority originates with the President.

Second, NCOS aren't commissioned by anybody, neither are junior enlisted, but they have rank and authority... which originates with COMMISSIONED officers, who's authority originates with the President.

quote:

Does he have the right to salute anyone...by code referenced above, I believe not.

Of course AR 600-25 doesn't give the President the "right" to salute. It doesn't give Naval personnel the right to salute either, but they do. You entirely missed the point. The President isn't IN any of the services. He's ABOVE all the services. He WRITES their regulations (not in his own person but they are written by his authority) so if he decides that the Commander in Chief can salute, then the CinC can do so.

tanksoldier

quote:
Since he is not commissioned by congress, he has no rank.



Untrue.

First, commissioned officers receive their commissions from the President, not Congress.

quibble, quibble.
All laws originate with the legislative branch and are spelled out in The United States Statutes at Large (a collection of all the laws signed or passed without a presidents signature). These are further refined (to make searching and use easier) into what is known as the United States Code. These then are the law of the land, with the Statutes being the final authority if a disagreement exists between the Statutes and Code. The executive branch, ie the president, etc, get their authority to act from US Code, and since Congress writes and passes the US Code, Congress can be said to be the seat of all authority, with oversight from the judicial branch. Since the "people" vote for members of Congress, we as a people have the ultimate power and responsibility.

Now, back to the original theme. US Code states that only uniformed personnel (recently changed to include military not in uniform and military retired) may utilize a military salute and the conditions under which that is proper. Then it says "all others" and hand over the heart, et al. No punitive measures are defined for failing to be "proper", however, given that all should show "proper" respect, I reaffirm my original statement that Presidents should not utilize a military salute and that doing so is not proper and by inference that it shows a lack of respect.

quote:

quibble, quibble.

There IS no "quibble, quibble" with the chain of command. Congress has no say in the commissioning of officers into the US military. None.

All serve at the pleasure of the President.

quote:

I reaffirm my original statement that Presidents should not utilize a military salute and that doing so is not proper and by inference that it shows a lack of respect.

...and I reaffirm that you're incorrect.

You have no idea how the military works, you have no concept of how military authority works or from whence it originates. The federal code you reference states that civilians should "salute" by placing a hand over the heart. The Commander in Chief is not a civilian, tho he is not a member of any particular branch of the military, because if he WAS a civilian he could not give orders to military personnel or exercise command, both of which the President clearly does.

You clearly aren't military yourself, but you insist on telling a career Soldier how things work. I _AM_ military, a veteran of 16 years and two wars, yet you insist on telling ME what does and does not show proper respect for the military? Really? I think I'm quite capable of deciding what I find respectful and what I don't ... as well as having a far better understanding of military regulations, protocol and tradition than you do. Not only are you ignorant, but your intelligence is questionable.

The Commander in Chief salutes because he wants to, and that's all that's required. End of story.

quote:

Originally posted by tanksoldier:

...and I reaffirm that you're incorrect.

You have no idea how the military works, you have no concept of how military authority works or from whence it originates. The federal code you reference states that civilians should "salute" by placing a hand over the heart. The Commander in Chief is not a civilian, tho he is not a member of any particular branch of the military, because if he WAS a civilian he could not give orders to military personnel or exercise command, both of which the President clearly does.

. . . your intelligence is questionable.

The Commander in Chief salutes because he wants to, and that's all that's required. End of story.

I concur with Tank.