WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Senator Jim Inhofe (R-Okla..) today praised the passage by unanimous consent of his bill (S.1877) clarifying U.S. law to allow veterans and servicemen not in uniform to salute the flag. Current law (US Code Title 4, Chapter 1) states that veterans and servicemen not in uniform should place their hand over their heart without clarifying whether they can or should salute the flag.

"The salute is a form of honor and respect, representing pride in one's military service," Senator Inhofe said. "Veterans and service members continue representing the military services even when not in uniform. "Unfortunately, current U.S. law leaves confusion as to whether veterans and service members out of uniform can or should salute the flag. My legislation will clarify this regulation, allowing veterans and servicemen alike to salute the flag, whether they are in uniform or not. "I look forward to seeing those who have served saluting proudly at baseball games, parades, and formal events. I believe this is an appropriate way to honor and recognize the 25 million veterans in the United States who have served in the military and remain as role models to others citizens. Those who are currently serving or have served in the military have earned this right, and their recognition will be an inspiration to others." This Bill was passed July 25, 2007. Let your veteran friends know about the Passage of this Bill.

This has long been a "touchy" subject for a lot of veteran folks who would like to proudly salute during the National Anthem, but do not do so because it is incorrect protocol... well now it's NOT..
Should any of the nitpickers raise their concerns, here's the appropriate cites of the change not just in custom, but in the law. Accordingly, customs that have varied over time of service or branch as to whether one should or should not when not wearing a hat/cover, when under arms or equipment, or otherwise are now moot: if you're a veteran and wish to salute, you may. It's the Law:
As originally written into Section 595 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2009, the new law (Public Law No. 110-181 of the United States Code) reads:
by striking “all persons present” and all that follows through the end of the section and inserting the following: “all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.”
However, this change in the U.S. Code caused problems, because "saluting the flag" is addressed three times in the U.S. Code, and the legislative change in the law that took place in July 2008 addressed only one— TITLE 4, Chapter 1, Section 9, which is shown above.
It failed to mention Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 4 from the same Chapter 1, which speaks to saluting the flag during the Pledge of Allegiance, and from Title 36—Patriotic and National Observances, Ceremonies, and Organizations, which includes conduct toward the flag during the National Anthem.
Instruction for saluting the the U.S. Flag during the National Anthem is found in a different section of the U.S. Code from where the "Flag Code" is found, and it is sadly, frequently, overlooked. Many readers comment that they were taught to stand at attention during the National Anthem, but not taught to salute.
Senator James Inhofe (R-Oklahoma) sponsored the original legislation in the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2009, and sponsored the amendment that Congress has now passed which clarifies the legislation and brings all three sections of the U.S. Code together to say the same thing —that veterans are now permitted to render a hand salute when the U.S. flag is raised and lowered, passes in review, during the Pledge of Allegiance, and during the playing of the National Anthem.
The amendment: Sponsor of The Veteran’s Salute Provision included in Section 595 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2009, S. 3001:
-Amends Title 36 of the United States Code to allow service members not in uniform to salute the flag during the National Anthem.
-FY08 Authorization Bill modified Section 9 of Title 4, US Code, to allow members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform to render the military salute during hoisting, lowering, or passing of the flag
-While the change made to US Code Title 4 allowed our veterans and service members not in uniform to salute the flag when the flag is raised, lowered, or passing in review, it did not allow them to salute the flag during the National Anthem
With this amendment, all portions of the US Code are now consistent for veterans and military out of uniform, to salute the flag.
Countless veterans have continued to render a military salute to the flag, from the day they first raised their right hand and took an Oath of Allegiance.
This option which allows veterans to salute the flag with a military-style salute is voluntary. Many veterans are pleased by the change in legislation, and many veterans will continue to salute the flag by holding their hands over their heart. I’m glad the U.S. Code now reflects that choice.

This applies to active duty and veterans...not civilians. If the law does not allow civilians to render a military hand salute to the flag, by what stretch of the imagination does it allow a civilian to render a hand salute to a military member? Potus should look those who salute his position as commander-in-chief straight in the eye, acknowledge that salute, and respond with an at ease. Even as potus, he hasn't earned the right to a military hand salute.

Meaningless.

SecDef and the various service secretaries have already changed the relevant regulations.

quote:

Even as potus, he hasn't earned the right to a military hand salute.

Commander in Chief is a military rank. The President can give a direct order just like a commissioned officer. SeDef can't, service secretaries can't... the President is the only person who does not wear a uniform who can. You will note that SecDef and the service secretaries also do not receive or return salutes.

Whatever you think of teh individual, the CinC rates a salute and certainly can return one.

Thank you tanksoldier. I was not aware that secdef and service secretaries could change US Code. I always thought that congress made laws.

I concur with tank.

While I may not have any respect for the man whatsoever, he did take an oath, just as those who wear the uniform, and such has the position and authority of office to render and be rendered a salute. It is my prayer that he honor the office and sacrifice of those who have given all for it to endure.

But to the point, I am pleased that the law allows vets the choice to do what many do anyway.

My wife asked my a few times many years ago why I continued to render salute to officers after I retired.

I told her my oath was without repentance.

She has not brought it up since.

I no longer wear the uniform but I am still "active duty", just on extended leave without pay...

The cabinet cannot change the US Code. They may be able to change regulations issued by their departments, but not the code itself.

quote:

Originally posted by tanksoldier:
Meaningless.

SecDef and the various service secretaries have already changed the relevant regulations.

quote:

Even as potus, he hasn't earned the right to a military hand salute.

Commander in Chief is a military rank. The President can give a direct order just like a commissioned officer. SeDef can't, service secretaries can't... the President is the only person who does not wear a uniform who can. You will note that SecDef and the service secretaries also do not receive or return salutes.

Whatever you think of teh individual, the CinC rates a salute and certainly can return one.

I was watching the return at Dover video and watched as Mr. Obama saluted and wondered whether this was correct. Didn't see any flames/discussions from the forum (if there was, I missed 'em) and asked my father and step father if this was protocol. They pretty much concur with your synopsis.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
The cabinet cannot change the US Code. They may be able to change regulations issued by their departments, but not the code itself.

I was incorrect. It was part of the Defense Authorization Bill for 2008.

Saluting during the National Anthem was left out, but recently added.

Sorry... potus c-in-c is not a rank. It is a civilian oversight position. If it werea rank, the UCMJ would be enforceable, (aka Clinton) and Posse Comitatus act of 1878 would probably prevent that interpretation.

quote:

It is a civilian oversight position.

No, it's not.

quote:

If it werea rank, the UCMJ would be enforceable,

Who would be the convening authority?

quote:

Posse Comitatus act of 1878 would probably prevent that interpretation.

How so? The CinC is not a member of either the US Army or US Air Force, the only two services to which posse comitatus applies.

tanksoldier.

What airplanes did the Air Force fly in 1878 when the Posse Comitatus Act was passed?
It was originally written to cover the army and navy.

Please do your homework.

quote:

Originally posted by darryl:
tanksoldier.

What airplanes did the Air Force fly in 1878 when the Posse Comitatus Act was passed?
It was originally written to cover the army and navy.

Please do your homework.

Well, as regards homework:

18 USC § 1385.

Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

repeat...
It was originally written...

Many changes since 1878.

And how does this follow the original theme that the potus is civilian and not military rank and is following proper protocol when using a military hand salute?

quote:

Originally posted by darryl:
Many changes since 1878.

The Navy and USMC are limited by their service regulations in a similar fashion to PC, but are NOT actually limited by the federal law.

I used to work Military Support to Civil Authority for the CAARNG. Trust me.

quote:

And how does this follow the original theme that the potus is civilian and not military rank and is following proper protocol when using a military hand salute?

POTUS wears many hats. He is both Head of State and Head of Government (in the UK the role is split: Monarch and Prime Minister). The Commander in Chief is another hat which is not a member of any branch of service but DOES carry real rank and real authority. The Commander in Chief is IN the chain of command, at the top, and everyone IN the chain of command HAS to have a rank. A civilian cannot exercise command and cannot give orders, the President in his role as Commander in Chief does both.

Check what AR 600-25 (www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_25.pdf) has to say:

1-5: f. The President of the United States, as the commander in chief, will be saluted by Army personnel in uniform.

Note that he is not saluted as PRESIDENT, but as the commander-in-chief. The POTUS/CinC is the ONLY civilian so recognized.

You'll further note how the Constitution assigns the role of Commander in Chief:

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States

The person holding the office of President is ALSO the commander in chief.

POTUS _IS_ a civilian, but he also holds militarily recognized rank and authority. Indeed, POTUS is the FOUNDATION of all military rank and authority. Commissioned officers get their authority to give orders from their commissions, granted by the President. NCOs get THEIR authority from the commissioned officers.

The Secretary of Defense, Secretary of the Army, etc CANNOT exercise command and CANNOT give lawfully binding orders to service members.

Lastly, all military regulations have their basis in the President's authority to give orders. Essentially, he MAKES the regulations exists by his authority. If the President SAYS he has the authority to salute, then he does so... he "writes" the rules.

tanksoldier.
thanks for a well thought reply.
I agree that potus has authority, and may even take battlefield command, but he is still civilian. Since he is not commissioned by congress, he has no rank. All his authority stems from Congress, the only group who can make law. Does he deserve to be saluted...doesn't matter to me. I have no heartburn over recognizing his position of authority. Does he have the right to salute anyone...by code referenced above, I believe not. The hand salute is expressly given to active duty military and veterans.
All others are to render respect to the Colors and Pledge of Allegiance with the right hand over the heart. It could be said that a civilian returning a hand salute to a military member is placing the military above the flag (Constitution).

And what was the penalty for veteran's rendering a hand salute BEFORE this piece of legislation?

I remember this issue came up when Reagan was President. The answer was, essentially, he's the President of the United States, he can do what he wants to do. I don't see anyone slapping a fine on Obama any time soon...

The minister probably won't kick you out of church for farting either.

Just that what is proper is and what isn't, isn't.

And I guess that where you stand is a statement all to itself.

quote:

Originally posted by darryl:
Since he is not commissioned by congress, he has no rank. All his authority stems from Congress, the only group who can make law.

Not quite. The president's authority comes from the U.S. Constitution, specifically Article II.
This authority is independent of the U. S. Congress.

And to get back to the topic, does any of this really matter? Whether Obama gives a good or lousy salute or salutes at all seems like a dumb thing to get wound up about. I don't particularly care for the man and spent weeks before the election working for his opponent.

As someone who is concerned with things like Obama's action or lack of action on the economy, Iran, Afghanistan etc., spending any time worrying about the salute seems pretty ridiculous.

It seems to me that whether the President can salute is like a debate over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or some of the debates of Talmudic scholars.

Most people just don't care. More importantly, it doesn't matter.